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Post by naama on Aug 30, 2022 4:40:49 GMT
If god sets up authority then they are divine. Jesus christ says this to pilate. Because God set up the principal of authority does not mean that unjust and evil authority are divine. History is an example of this; Hithlar, Stalin, Ida Amin to mention a few. In the conversation between Jesus and Pilate, Jesus told Pilate that he had no authority over Him except the authority that he was giving in the Salvation plan of God. Jesus was the Divine One, not Pilate. Or how about Pilate? God created us to love. Hitler loved national socialism and Stalin loved communism. Would you give caveats warning me not to love God because evil men love? The second sentence is why your gospel message is very nice and pleasant but utterly complete. Jesus could have been run over by a chariot if salvation is about saying some magic words to get eternal life? Did Jesus die to solve a literary puzzle like giving meaning the lyrics to our favorite song? Silly! So the promise of a redeemer right after the fall of a married couple really had nothing to do with God transferring authority to a husband and then disobeying God when he obeyed his wife? Sounds harsh if authority is not divinely granted by God. Oh! I forgot. Genesis is about the age of the earth.
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Post by princess on Aug 30, 2022 4:53:54 GMT
How do the Apostles view Sarah here? Submission is a beautiful thing when it is done for the Lord. It's difficult to submit to any human being because we are proud, and not always representative of God's character. Anybody who has worked for an employer knows this! We can also obey God by *not* submitting to certain authorities when they tell us to act in a pagan way. We must not do that...ever. You know that! You never answered my question: How do the apostles view Sarah? You do know Sarah obeyed Abraham to the point of becoming a concubine? I am not even arguing to take things that far. She trusted God and I probably don't have that level of faith. My husband's direct authority is Jesus Christ and my direct authority is my husband. A husband and wife are always obeying God. I do not mean my husband is God, of course, but rather that his authority is not something other than God’s authority. Paul makes this very claim in Romans 13:1 when he says “because there is no authority if not by God.” So authority only exists as the authority of God. If not by God, there is no authority at all.
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Post by princess on Aug 30, 2022 4:56:51 GMT
Ooops...I said "If god sets up authority then they are divine"
Big correction...the source of authority, not "they" are divine
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Post by foxjj on Aug 30, 2022 6:43:09 GMT
Because God set up the principal of authority does not mean that unjust and evil authority are divine. History is an example of this; Hithlar, Stalin, Ida Amin to mention a few. In the conversation between Jesus and Pilate, Jesus told Pilate that he had no authority over Him except the authority that he was giving in the Salvation plan of God. Jesus was the Divine One, not Pilate. Or how about Pilate? God created us to love. Hitler loved national socialism and Stalin loved communism. Would you give caveats warning me not to love God because evil men love? The second sentence is why your gospel message is very nice and pleasant but utterly complete. Jesus could have been run over by a chariot if salvation is about saying some magic words to get eternal life? Did Jesus die to solve a literary puzzle like giving meaning the lyrics to our favorite song? Silly! So the promise of a redeemer right after the fall of a married couple really had nothing to do with God transferring authority to a husband and then disobeying God when he obeyed his wife? Sounds harsh if authority is not divinely granted by God. Oh! I forgot. Genesis is about the age of the earth. Sarcasm is a very poor response.
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Post by randy on Sept 1, 2022 5:45:17 GMT
Submission is a beautiful thing when it is done for the Lord. It's difficult to submit to any human being because we are proud, and not always representative of God's character. Anybody who has worked for an employer knows this! We can also obey God by *not* submitting to certain authorities when they tell us to act in a pagan way. We must not do that...ever. You know that! You never answered my question: How do the apostles view Sarah? You do know Sarah obeyed Abraham to the point of becoming a concubine? I am not even arguing to take things that far. She trusted God and I probably don't have that level of faith. My husband's direct authority is Jesus Christ and my direct authority is my husband. A husband and wife are always obeying God. I do not mean my husband is God, of course, but rather that his authority is not something other than God’s authority. Paul makes this very claim in Romans 13:1 when he says “because there is no authority if not by God.” So authority only exists as the authority of God. If not by God, there is no authority at all. I really have nothing more to add right now. My answer to the question about Sarah's authority was that submission of a wife to her husband is a beautiful thing. On the other hand, the husband serving his wife is also a beautiful thing. The Bible says we are to "submit to one another." Sarah is *not* to obey her husband Abraham if he asks her to do something sinful. Period. God is the One you should worry about--not necessarily your husband.
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Post by princess on Sept 1, 2022 15:15:50 GMT
I never asked for your personal opinion? This reminds me in the divorce and remarriage topic when I was asked to give my personal opinion and experiences on the matter when personal opinions and experiences are not an authority.
The Apostle Paul opens up with mutual submission before discussing wives submitting to their husbands. The point is simple: We are to submit to each others authority as to the Lord.
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Post by randy on Sept 2, 2022 4:15:04 GMT
I never asked for your personal opinion? This reminds me in the divorce and remarriage topic when I was asked to give my personal opinion and experiences on the matter when personal opinions and experiences are not an authority. The Apostle Paul opens up with mutual submission before discussing wives submitting to their husbands. The point is simple: We are to submit to each others authority as to the Lord. I have no idea why you persist in this? I'm basing my beliefs on the Bible--not on my own "opinion." Obviously, we form opinions about what the Bible says. But we hold the Bible as the authority--not our opinions. You just have to answer the question: Will you obey your husband if he asks you to do something sinful? Your answer should be: No.
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Post by princess on Sept 2, 2022 4:29:36 GMT
I am still waiting for what the Apostles wrote about Sarah?
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Post by randy on Sept 3, 2022 18:41:09 GMT
I am still waiting for what the Apostles wrote about Sarah? So, you are not willing to answer the question? Should you obey your husband if he asks you to do something sinful? Obviously, as a Christian the answer would always be no. So discussing what the Apostles wrote about Sarah would be consistent with this. Sarah called her husband "lord," which is a term of deference to the leadership God gave to husbands since the Fall. None of that mitigates the need for all, male and female, to obey God. So when a husband/lord requires that his wife commit sins, she should "obey God rather than Man." Furthermore, the "lordship" or "headship" of a husband is no excuse for abuse, nor does it mean he does not himself need to submit to his wife. The Bible calls for Christians to "submit to one another." If the husband is not willing to lay down his life for his wife, he is not serving her properly as a Christian. We are all called to be servants, both the wife and the husband. The role of the husband as "lord," or "head," simply means he leads the family in making decisions. But in reality, quite often it is the influence of the wife that determines the choices the husband makes, because he seeks to please her and to serve her.
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Post by princess on Sept 4, 2022 14:27:51 GMT
I answered the question numerous times but you cannot see past authority being abusive and oppressive out to make people sin. Yet the opposite is true way more than what you project. Those under authority fight against authority to make or justify people sin
Lord means "someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler" What you cannot understand is Sarah obeyed Abraham and trusted that God would find a way. This is consistent with the message.
Sorry, not going to take marriage advise from someone who cannot define marriage or distinguish it from living in sin
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Post by randy on Sept 4, 2022 15:46:47 GMT
I answered the question numerous times but you cannot see past authority being abusive and oppressive out to make people sin. Yet the opposite is true way more than what you project. Those under authority fight against authority to make or justify people sin Lord means "someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler" What you cannot understand is Sarah obeyed Abraham and trusted that God would find a way. This is consistent with the message. Sorry, not going to take marriage advise from someone who cannot define marriage or distinguish it from living in sin I'm not finding this discussion edifying. Are you? Why not move on?
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Post by foxjj on Sept 4, 2022 16:04:21 GMT
Thank you both for sharing your valid understanding of the subject.
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Post by princess on Sept 5, 2022 5:10:37 GMT
Is it edifying to rant and rave against the church being "dead" and "no life in them" or "people dying around me in their rebellious state"? You must be pure and holy if you can blame everyone else but not even consider the same criticism.
You made your decision.
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Post by randy on Sept 5, 2022 6:34:01 GMT
Is it edifying to rant and rave against the church being "dead" and "no life in them" or "people dying around me in their rebellious state"? You must be pure and holy if you can blame everyone else but not even consider the same criticism. You made your decision. The word of God is said to be a "2-edged sword." For me that means whatever I apply to others may apply equally to me. A teacher must be willing to expose himself to scrutiny. I've always done this. And I'm willing to reply to any accusation you have against me. Maybe I'll learn something, or maybe you will. I stand by whatever I said about "dead Christianity." I believe God shared that with me in my thoughts when I was a young man, considering leaving the American Lutheran denomination. I had benefited from the teaching of the Lutheran catechism, but the spiritual life within the church was all but dead. Picture the Gregorian chant in the 21st century. Picture pure perfunctory readings and confessions, and repetitive rituals. Whether wrong or right, I felt I had to join with Christians who seemed in closer contact with Deity. I don't hate Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, or anybody. But I can judge whether they are spiritually alive or not by how authentic they are in describing their love for Christ. One of my best friends was just here the other day, and he is a retired Lutheran pastor. He is charismatic, but has no problem ministering in a denomination that I consider rather dead. I told him that as long as he is running a service, I think the church will be alive spiritually. So my charge that various denominations are all but dead has a caveat to it. God can bring life back to the dead.
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Post by princess on Sept 6, 2022 13:51:48 GMT
Everyone else is the problem but now also creeds....even though they were a part of Christianity in utero when it flourished.
You can also tell how spiritually alive a person is? Can you let us in on this secret ability?
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself tells us who loves him and who is spiritually dead
"If you love Me, keep My commandments."
and again:
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
and again:
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."
and again:
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."
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Post by randy on Sept 7, 2022 4:58:09 GMT
Everyone else is the problem but now also creeds....even though they were a part of Christianity in utero when it flourished. You can also tell how spiritually alive a person is? Can you let us in on this secret ability? The Lord Jesus Christ Himself tells us who loves him and who is spiritually dead "If you love Me, keep My commandments." and again: "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." and again: "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me." and again: "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." I don't know what you're talking about when you mention the "creeds?" I don't have a problem with the historic creeds. And I agree with you that those who keep Christ's commandments are those who God accepts. His commandments, however, are not requirements of external rituals, but rather, designed to elicit a response to His love in real time. They must take place in real time, or they are poor copies of the real thing. I hold to this kind of mystical interpretation of righteousness, which is what I believe Christ meant when he said he is the vine, and we are the branches.
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Post by princess on Sept 7, 2022 5:25:43 GMT
Here is what you wrote:
"Picture the Gregorian chant in the 21st century. Picture pure perfunctory readings and confessions, and repetitive rituals"
You must be right and classical christianity wrong....hold on? Who lost the west?
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Post by randy on Sept 7, 2022 6:37:18 GMT
Here is what you wrote: "Picture the Gregorian chant in the 21st century. Picture pure perfunctory readings and confessions, and repetitive rituals" You must be right and classical christianity wrong....hold on? Who lost the west? As I said, I don't have a problem with the creeds. I do have a problem with repetitive ritual when there is no longer any indication of a real relationship with Christ. This is my personal experience, sister. You don't know where I've been. I was raised in a church where when I reached adolescence and had problems the pastor had no answers for my Mother. When I approached the pastor, asking him about the Holy Spirit and His gifts, he had no answer. My brother had messed with ouja boards, another brother got into pyramidology (whatever that is), and I got into the Charismatic Movement, after falling into moral depravity. During the services, the songs droned on with very little sincerity. If you haven't been in a Lutheran church like this, don't judge me when I say I was raised in one. We regularly recited the creeds, but during the week the only time Christianity was discussed was prayer before meals and at bedtime. Very little, if any, heart-felt discussions about what Christ means to us. We were expected to follow the Ten Commandments without any attempt at explaining how it is applied in situations around us. I wandered into the pagan world looking for reality, and didn't find it until I found a more vibrant living faith among those who were more serious about their religion. I have no idea why you're so critical. I'm not judging anything but what I've personally seen. If you haven't seen that, be at peace with yourself--you don't need me giving you any assurances.
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Post by princess on Sept 8, 2022 3:53:43 GMT
Now you unwittingly exposed the problem! Husbands have authority over wives and children, not pastors. You can seek out gregorian chants or join charismatic movements but nothing is going to fit when the natural order is disordered.
If you want reality this is the place to start
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Post by randy on Sept 8, 2022 4:48:25 GMT
Now you unwittingly exposed the problem! Husbands have authority over wives and children, not pastors. You can seek out gregorian chants or join charismatic movements but nothing is going to fit when the natural order is disordered. If you want reality this is the place to start You are completely uninspired. I joined the Charismatic Movement out of guilt for not having been in submission to my parents and to society. I do believe in serving, sister. I believe wives should obey their husbands, assuming that they are not encouraging paganism or sin. Pastors have helped me when they've been walking in the Spirit, and not following some pre-determined order that lacks any real spontaneity or life. Routine can take the place of genuine service. It doesn't have to, but it can. Nothing coming from you seems edifying, but only condemning. And that's why you don't recognize the truth in what I say. You're bent on using submission to your husband as an excuse to let him carry the responsibility of hearing the Lord. But you need to do that as an individual so that he doesn't lead you down the wrong path. That may or may not be your reality, but it is a sound principle. And it holds for any authority structure a Christian may find himself or herself in. As I said, be at peace with yourself. If you don't like what I say, you need to answer the point: Why do you find fault with my saying that you can disobey authority that asks you to sin? While I was still in my teens, I told my parents that I thought our church was spiritually dead. As an adult I left the church, but they continued. Ultimately, they left that particular church a few years later because the leadership had begun to allow secular rock concerts in the basement for the youth. Some Christian friends of mine had joined a Christian band, and told me that they performed for my church on a youth outing down at the ocean. They said the kids smuggled in beer and drank while they were there. As I said, we should follow our conscience, and not uninspired authority.
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