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Post by princess on Aug 28, 2022 0:25:24 GMT
Obeying authority is salvational since the source of authority is God.
The fear of the lord is the source of all wisdom. Those who have authority have it from God and exercise an authority that is derived from God. Hence, the term “fear” is used when referring to human authorities (Rom 13:3-4, 7; Eph 5:33; 6:5; 1 Pet 2:18; 3:2), which themselves are connected to a fear of Christ and recognition of God’s authority (Rom 13:2; Eph 5:21; Col 5:22; 1 Pet 2:13, 17).
The real evil, the real incompetence, the real inconsistency and conspiracy theory here is the same one that has existed from the beginning. Man does not want to submit to God. He wants to be God and he'll make every excuse in the book to be as pious as he can in being so.
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Post by princess on Aug 28, 2022 1:03:03 GMT
For the record, I do *not* believe that the Bible teaches that human authority is equal to divine authority. As has been pointed out, there are times when we must obey God rather than Man. That is, human authority sometimes commits "over-reach" and commands us to do things that we *must not do* as Christians. I'm applying that same principle to families, to children, and to spouses. When one spouse commands the other to do something pagan, the Christian *must not* obey! When parents tell their children they must do something sinful, they must *not* obey! If pastors tell you that immoral acts are really okay, and you should do as you please, you must *not* obey them! Generally, God maintains order in societies by setting up authorities who are responsible enough to maintain the public order. But we are warned that there are limits to this "authority." It is no longer "divine authority" when that human authority exceeds God's limits. And we learn what those limits are from the Scriptures. "Obeying authority" is not "salvation," as it has now been explained. And that was my concern from the start, although I did not prejudge the one who advocated for it. Salvation is the choice to sacrifice our worldly life for the life of Christ through the Spirit of Christ. Anything we do in this world, including obeying authorities, may be good in part, but if it does not take place according to the word of God and through the Spirit of Christ, it is *not* "Salvation!" God commands Israel to obey the tyrant Nebuchadnezzar, who does not come for the good of the people but to kill, take away their lands, enslave and exile them: Jeremiah says Give them a message for their masters and say, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Tell this to your masters: 5 With my great power and outstretched arm I made the earth and its people and the animals that are on it, and I give it to anyone I please. 6 Now I will give all your countries into the hands of my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him. 7 All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him. 8 “‘“If, however, any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon or bow its neck under his yoke, I will punish that nation with the sword, famine and plague, declares the Lord, until I destroy it by his hand. 9 So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers who tell you, ‘You will not serve the king of Babylon.’ 10 They prophesy lies to you that will only serve to remove you far from your lands; I will banish you and you will perish. 11 But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to live there, declares the Lord.”’” God demands His representative powers be obeyed as He is to be obeyed. Disobedience to them is disobedience to Him, and thus, it will have the consequence of all who rebel against God. And that is the true prescription here. There is no need for gymnastics to discover it. Every single soul is to be in subjection to government authorities because every single soul is to be in subjection to God.
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Post by princess on Aug 28, 2022 1:47:01 GMT
For the record, I do *not* believe that the Bible teaches that human authority is equal to divine authority. As has been pointed out, there are times when we must obey God rather than Man. That is, human authority sometimes commits "over-reach" and commands us to do things that we *must not do* as Christians. I know you don't believe authority is divine which is why you turn to caveats and loopholes to righteously defy God. Romans 13:2 states: “the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur condemnation.” Slaves, be subject to your masters in all fear, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are “wicked/perverse/unjust/unfair.” 19 For this finds God’s favor, if because of conscience toward God someone endures hardships in suffering unjustly. Ephesians 5:22 states: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” Colossians 3:20 states" Children, obey your parents in everything, for this is pleasing in the Lord”
Ephesians 6:5-8 states: 5 Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ, 6 not like those who do their work only when someone is watching—as people-pleasers—but as slaves of Christ doing the will of God from the heart. 7 Obey with enthusiasm, as obeying the Lord and not people, 8 because you know that each person, whether slave or free, if he does something good, this will be rewarded by the Lord. 1 Peter 2:13-14 command believers to “be subject to every human power for the Lord’s sake
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Post by mfox on Aug 28, 2022 2:03:05 GMT
For the record, I do *not* believe that the Bible teaches that human authority is equal to divine authority. As has been pointed out, there are times when we must obey God rather than Man. That is, human authority sometimes commits "over-reach" and commands us to do things that we *must not do* as Christians. I'm applying that same principle to families, to children, and to spouses. When one spouse commands the other to do something pagan, the Christian *must not* obey! When parents tell their children they must do something sinful, they must *not* obey! If pastors tell you that immoral acts are really okay, and you should do as you please, you must *not* obey them! Generally, God maintains order in societies by setting up authorities who are responsible enough to maintain the public order. But we are warned that there are limits to this "authority." It is no longer "divine authority" when that human authority exceeds God's limits. And we learn what those limits are from the Scriptures. "Obeying authority" is not "salvation," as it has now been explained. And that was my concern from the start, although I did not prejudge the one who advocated for it. Salvation is the choice to sacrifice our worldly life for the life of Christ through the Spirit of Christ. Anything we do in this world, including obeying authorities, may be good in part, but if it does not take place according to the word of God and through the Spirit of Christ, it is *not* "Salvation!" God commands Israel to obey the tyrant Nebuchadnezzar, who does not come for the good of the people but to kill, take away their lands, enslave and exile them: Jeremiah says Give them a message for their masters and say, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Tell this to your masters: 5 With my great power and outstretched arm I made the earth and its people and the animals that are on it, and I give it to anyone I please. 6 Now I will give all your countries into the hands of my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him. 7 All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him. 8 “‘“If, however, any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon or bow its neck under his yoke, I will punish that nation with the sword, famine and plague, declares the Lord, until I destroy it by his hand. 9 So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers who tell you, ‘You will not serve the king of Babylon.’ 10 They prophesy lies to you that will only serve to remove you far from your lands; I will banish you and you will perish. 11 But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to live there, declares the Lord.”’” God demands His representative powers be obeyed as He is to be obeyed. Disobedience to them is disobedience to Him, and thus, it will have the consequence of all who rebel against God. And that is the true prescription here. There is no need for gymnastics to discover it. Every single soul is to be in subjection to government authorities because every single soul is to be in subjection to God. Yes I agree that Israel was given into the hands of king Nebuchadnezzar here and that he was given the authority over the Jews that is not in question. But were Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego right to defy king Nebuchadnezzar and not bow down and worship the golden statue because they were only to worship God? Yes they were but yes they were still subject to suffer the consequences of that action because of the authority given to king Nebuchadnezzar. Do you see my point here? We can be under authority but we still have to obey God over man.
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Post by princess on Aug 28, 2022 4:27:47 GMT
Did you read what Randy wrote? He believes authority is not divine because a human authority can overreach. I am trying to avoid this trap.
Jesus' statement to Pilate devastates Randy's view in terms of what view of government He taught. Ask yourself whether the following sounds like Jesus had a libertarian view that Pilate does not have authority to punish Him as an innocent man or whether He has the view that Pilate's authority is given to him to use at his own discretion, and therefore, he retains it even when not exercising it justly.
So Pilate said, “Do you refuse to speak to me? Don’t you know I have the authority to release you and to crucify you?” Jesus replied, “You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of greater sin.”
Jesus acknowledges that Pilate has authority over Him but because it was given to him from "above," Hence, God has given Pilate authority over Jesus who Pilate now is going to condemn unjustly. Jesus acknowledges that Pilate is doing this unjustly because although he states the one who delivered Him up has the greater sin, that very statement implies that Pilate is sinning.
At no time in this conversation does Jesus say that Pilate doesn't have the authority to do this sinful and unjust thing toward Him. Instead, the opposite is affirmed.
Hence, authorities can sin in their use of the authority given to them by God without losing their authority. Of course, it is understood that they will be judged by God for abusing it.
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Post by mfox on Aug 28, 2022 6:01:01 GMT
Did you read what Randy wrote? He believes authority is not divine because a human authority can overreach. I am trying to avoid this trap. Jesus' statement to Pilate devastates Randy's view in terms of what view of government He taught. Ask yourself whether the following sounds like Jesus had a libertarian view that Pilate does not have authority to punish Him as an innocent man or whether He has the view that Pilate's authority is given to him to use at his own discretion, and therefore, he retains it even when not exercising it justly. So Pilate said, “Do you refuse to speak to me? Don’t you know I have the authority to release you and to crucify you?” Jesus replied, “You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of greater sin.” Jesus acknowledges that Pilate has authority over Him but because it was given to him from "above," Hence, God has given Pilate authority over Jesus who Pilate now is going to condemn unjustly. Jesus acknowledges that Pilate is doing this unjustly because although he states the one who delivered Him up has the greater sin, that very statement implies that Pilate is sinning. At no time in this conversation does Jesus say that Pilate doesn't have the authority to do this sinful and unjust thing toward Him. Instead, the opposite is affirmed. Hence, authorities can sin in their use of the authority given to them by God without losing their authority. Of course, it is understood that they will be judged by God for abusing it. Yes I agree But what I was asking you is were Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego right to defy king Nebuchadnezzar and not bow down and worship the golden statue because they were only to worship God? Was it a sin to defy king Nebuchadnezzar in that event? Yes they were still subject to suffer the consequences of that action because of the authority given to king Nebuchadnezzar. Do you see my point here? We can be under authority but we still have to obey God over man
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Post by foxjj on Aug 28, 2022 7:19:05 GMT
Did you read what Randy wrote? He believes authority is not divine because a human authority can overreach. I am trying to avoid this trap. Jesus' statement to Pilate devastates Randy's view in terms of what view of government He taught. Ask yourself whether the following sounds like Jesus had a libertarian view that Pilate does not have authority to punish Him as an innocent man or whether He has the view that Pilate's authority is given to him to use at his own discretion, and therefore, he retains it even when not exercising it justly. So Pilate said, “Do you refuse to speak to me? Don’t you know I have the authority to release you and to crucify you?” Jesus replied, “You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of greater sin.” Jesus acknowledges that Pilate has authority over Him but because it was given to him from "above," Hence, God has given Pilate authority over Jesus who Pilate now is going to condemn unjustly. Jesus acknowledges that Pilate is doing this unjustly because although he states the one who delivered Him up has the greater sin, that very statement implies that Pilate is sinning. At no time in this conversation does Jesus say that Pilate doesn't have the authority to do this sinful and unjust thing toward Him. Instead, the opposite is affirmed. Hence, authorities can sin in their use of the authority given to them by God without losing their authority. Of course, it is understood that they will be judged by God for abusing it. You are using the wrong argument here Naama. Pilate only had authority over Jesus because He stood before him as The Sacrifical Lamb of God. Jesus is telling Pilate that he only had the authority to sentence Him to death because God had preordained it for our salvation. Unbeknownst to him, Pilate was a part of God’s plan.
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Post by randy on Aug 28, 2022 15:13:18 GMT
Obeying authority is salvational since the source of authority is God. The fear of the lord is the source of all wisdom. Those who have authority have it from God and exercise an authority that is derived from God. Hence, the term “fear” is used when referring to human authorities (Rom 13:3-4, 7; Eph 5:33; 6:5; 1 Pet 2:18; 3:2), which themselves are connected to a fear of Christ and recognition of God’s authority (Rom 13:2; Eph 5:21; Col 5:22; 1 Pet 2:13, 17). The real evil, the real incompetence, the real inconsistency and conspiracy theory here is the same one that has existed from the beginning. Man does not want to submit to God. He wants to be God and he'll make every excuse in the book to be as pious as he can in being so. We are not arguing about the nature of sin--we all agree on that. But we would argue whether everything that "originates from God" is "salvational?" That is clearly not true, since many things that originate from God are not "salvational." For example... Matt 5.He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.Abimelek was not experiencing "salvation" when he obeyed God in the matter of not taking Abraham's wife for his own... Gen 20.4 Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? 5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her."If so, if not everything that comes from God is "salvational," then we need to separate what truly is salvational and what is not salvational. Obeying the Lord in the matter of accepting Christ as our life and as our redeemer is what is salvational--not obeying authorities that God set up, who may obey God in their position of authority or not.
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Post by randy on Aug 28, 2022 15:19:08 GMT
For the record, I do *not* believe that the Bible teaches that human authority is equal to divine authority. As has been pointed out, there are times when we must obey God rather than Man. That is, human authority sometimes commits "over-reach" and commands us to do things that we *must not do* as Christians. I'm applying that same principle to families, to children, and to spouses. When one spouse commands the other to do something pagan, the Christian *must not* obey! When parents tell their children they must do something sinful, they must *not* obey! If pastors tell you that immoral acts are really okay, and you should do as you please, you must *not* obey them! Generally, God maintains order in societies by setting up authorities who are responsible enough to maintain the public order. But we are warned that there are limits to this "authority." It is no longer "divine authority" when that human authority exceeds God's limits. And we learn what those limits are from the Scriptures. "Obeying authority" is not "salvation," as it has now been explained. And that was my concern from the start, although I did not prejudge the one who advocated for it. Salvation is the choice to sacrifice our worldly life for the life of Christ through the Spirit of Christ. Anything we do in this world, including obeying authorities, may be good in part, but if it does not take place according to the word of God and through the Spirit of Christ, it is *not* "Salvation!" God commands Israel to obey the tyrant Nebuchadnezzar, who does not come for the good of the people but to kill, take away their lands, enslave and exile them: Jeremiah says Give them a message for their masters and say, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Tell this to your masters: 5 With my great power and outstretched arm I made the earth and its people and the animals that are on it, and I give it to anyone I please. 6 Now I will give all your countries into the hands of my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him. 7 All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him. 8 “‘“If, however, any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon or bow its neck under his yoke, I will punish that nation with the sword, famine and plague, declares the Lord, until I destroy it by his hand. 9 So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers who tell you, ‘You will not serve the king of Babylon.’ 10 They prophesy lies to you that will only serve to remove you far from your lands; I will banish you and you will perish. 11 But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to live there, declares the Lord.”’” God demands His representative powers be obeyed as He is to be obeyed. Disobedience to them is disobedience to Him, and thus, it will have the consequence of all who rebel against God. And that is the true prescription here. There is no need for gymnastics to discover it. Every single soul is to be in subjection to government authorities because every single soul is to be in subjection to God. I think God has to lead in matters of obeying bad authorities. Yes, God has given them authority. Yes, we need to obey them at times. We don't obey them if they command us to sin. We do submit to them, in conditions where God has given them power to abuse us. We are not choosing to sin, but consigning ourselves to fate God has delivered us over to.
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Post by randy on Aug 28, 2022 15:21:56 GMT
For the record, I do *not* believe that the Bible teaches that human authority is equal to divine authority. As has been pointed out, there are times when we must obey God rather than Man. That is, human authority sometimes commits "over-reach" and commands us to do things that we *must not do* as Christians. I know you don't believe authority is divine which is why you turn to caveats and loopholes to righteously defy God. No, that misrepresents my position. I believe God sets up authorities. To disobey authorities when they command us to sin is not a "loop hole"--it is biblical.
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Post by randy on Aug 28, 2022 15:27:10 GMT
Did you read what Randy wrote? He believes authority is not divine because a human authority can overreach. I am trying to avoid this trap. Jesus' statement to Pilate devastates Randy's view in terms of what view of government He taught. Ask yourself whether the following sounds like Jesus had a libertarian view that Pilate does not have authority to punish Him as an innocent man or whether He has the view that Pilate's authority is given to him to use at his own discretion, and therefore, he retains it even when not exercising it justly. So Pilate said, “Do you refuse to speak to me? Don’t you know I have the authority to release you and to crucify you?” Jesus replied, “You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of greater sin.” Jesus acknowledges that Pilate has authority over Him but because it was given to him from "above," Hence, God has given Pilate authority over Jesus who Pilate now is going to condemn unjustly. Jesus acknowledges that Pilate is doing this unjustly because although he states the one who delivered Him up has the greater sin, that very statement implies that Pilate is sinning. At no time in this conversation does Jesus say that Pilate doesn't have the authority to do this sinful and unjust thing toward Him. Instead, the opposite is affirmed. Hence, authorities can sin in their use of the authority given to them by God without losing their authority. Of course, it is understood that they will be judged by God for abusing it. Nobody has to defend me because I can defend myself. And again, I did not say authorities are set up by anything other than God, for one reason or another. When you say "authorities are divine," I would refrain from that particular language, because the way you're using it indicates we are to obey authorities even when they tell us to sin. That is not "divine authority." Authorities established by God can indeed abuse their authority. Don't you believe the Pharisees and Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, and Pilate's Court exceeded their authority in the matter of condemning Jesus to death? Clearly, God used their authority to accomplish His will in the matter of redeeming mankind. But it was still an abuse of authority. Jesus submitted to it not as if their "authority was divine," but only because God had set them up as authorities to give them freedom to abuse that authority, leading to our redemption. But it was *not* good authority from God such that we are to obey their example, or their teaching. And if any of these commanded Jesus to sin, he would not have done so, nor should we.
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Post by princess on Aug 28, 2022 15:55:38 GMT
Did you read what Randy wrote? He believes authority is not divine because a human authority can overreach. I am trying to avoid this trap. Jesus' statement to Pilate devastates Randy's view in terms of what view of government He taught. Ask yourself whether the following sounds like Jesus had a libertarian view that Pilate does not have authority to punish Him as an innocent man or whether He has the view that Pilate's authority is given to him to use at his own discretion, and therefore, he retains it even when not exercising it justly. So Pilate said, “Do you refuse to speak to me? Don’t you know I have the authority to release you and to crucify you?” Jesus replied, “You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of greater sin.” Jesus acknowledges that Pilate has authority over Him but because it was given to him from "above," Hence, God has given Pilate authority over Jesus who Pilate now is going to condemn unjustly. Jesus acknowledges that Pilate is doing this unjustly because although he states the one who delivered Him up has the greater sin, that very statement implies that Pilate is sinning. At no time in this conversation does Jesus say that Pilate doesn't have the authority to do this sinful and unjust thing toward Him. Instead, the opposite is affirmed. Hence, authorities can sin in their use of the authority given to them by God without losing their authority. Of course, it is understood that they will be judged by God for abusing it. Yes I agree But what I was asking you is were Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego right to defy king Nebuchadnezzar and not bow down and worship the golden statue because they were only to worship God? Was it a sin to defy king Nebuchadnezzar in that event? Yes they were still subject to suffer the consequences of that action because of the authority given to king Nebuchadnezzar. Do you see my point here? We can be under authority but we still have to obey God over man Sorry Marty, Of course it was not a sin to defy Neb because we never really obey man but obey God through those He grants authority. I know you are mature but others are going to claim authority is not divine because they sometimes play outside of the margins.
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Post by princess on Aug 28, 2022 16:16:19 GMT
Did you read what Randy wrote? He believes authority is not divine because a human authority can overreach. I am trying to avoid this trap. Jesus' statement to Pilate devastates Randy's view in terms of what view of government He taught. Ask yourself whether the following sounds like Jesus had a libertarian view that Pilate does not have authority to punish Him as an innocent man or whether He has the view that Pilate's authority is given to him to use at his own discretion, and therefore, he retains it even when not exercising it justly. So Pilate said, “Do you refuse to speak to me? Don’t you know I have the authority to release you and to crucify you?” Jesus replied, “You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of greater sin.” Jesus acknowledges that Pilate has authority over Him but because it was given to him from "above," Hence, God has given Pilate authority over Jesus who Pilate now is going to condemn unjustly. Jesus acknowledges that Pilate is doing this unjustly because although he states the one who delivered Him up has the greater sin, that very statement implies that Pilate is sinning. At no time in this conversation does Jesus say that Pilate doesn't have the authority to do this sinful and unjust thing toward Him. Instead, the opposite is affirmed. Hence, authorities can sin in their use of the authority given to them by God without losing their authority. Of course, it is understood that they will be judged by God for abusing it. You are using the wrong argument here Naama. Pilate only had authority over Jesus because He stood before him as The Sacrifical Lamb of God. Jesus is telling Pilate that he only had the authority to sentence Him to death because God had preordained it for our salvation. Unbeknownst to him, Pilate was a part of God’s plan. It must be so frustrating trying to communicate the gospel without the power of the gospel.
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Post by princess on Aug 28, 2022 16:17:34 GMT
I know you don't believe authority is divine which is why you turn to caveats and loopholes to righteously defy God. No, that misrepresents my position. I believe God sets up authorities. To disobey authorities when they command us to sin is not a "loop hole"--it is biblical. If god sets up authority then they are divine. Jesus christ says this to pilate.
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Post by princess on Aug 28, 2022 16:25:16 GMT
Obeying authority is salvational since the source of authority is God. The fear of the lord is the source of all wisdom. Those who have authority have it from God and exercise an authority that is derived from God. Hence, the term “fear” is used when referring to human authorities (Rom 13:3-4, 7; Eph 5:33; 6:5; 1 Pet 2:18; 3:2), which themselves are connected to a fear of Christ and recognition of God’s authority (Rom 13:2; Eph 5:21; Col 5:22; 1 Pet 2:13, 17). The real evil, the real incompetence, the real inconsistency and conspiracy theory here is the same one that has existed from the beginning. Man does not want to submit to God. He wants to be God and he'll make every excuse in the book to be as pious as he can in being so. We are not arguing about the nature of sin--we all agree on that. But we would argue whether everything that "originates from God" is "salvational?" That is clearly not true, since many things that originate from God are not "salvational." For example... Matt 5.He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.Abimelek was not experiencing "salvation" when he obeyed God in the matter of not taking Abraham's wife for his own... Gen 20.4 Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? 5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her."If so, if not everything that comes from God is "salvational," then we need to separate what truly is salvational and what is not salvational. Obeying the Lord in the matter of accepting Christ as our life and as our redeemer is what is salvational--not obeying authorities that God set up, who may obey God in their position of authority or not. How do the Apostles view Sarah here?
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Post by foxjj on Aug 28, 2022 19:47:57 GMT
You are using the wrong argument here Naama. Pilate only had authority over Jesus because He stood before him as The Sacrifical Lamb of God. Jesus is telling Pilate that he only had the authority to sentence Him to death because God had preordained it for our salvation. Unbeknownst to him, Pilate was a part of God’s plan. It must be so frustrating trying to communicate the gospel without the power of the gospel. No frustration communicating The Gospel. Just look around at the hundreds of Gospel posts on this site where Jesus is glorified.
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Post by princess on Aug 29, 2022 4:10:58 GMT
You are a great guy and your messages are very positive and they do indeed glorify Christ.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 29, 2022 6:44:49 GMT
Thank you for recognizing that my messages glorify Christ. That been so what was the meaning of your statement: “It must be so frustrating trying to communicate the gospel without the power of the gospel.”
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Post by foxjj on Aug 29, 2022 15:51:39 GMT
No, that misrepresents my position. I believe God sets up authorities. To disobey authorities when they command us to sin is not a "loop hole"--it is biblical. If god sets up authority then they are divine. Jesus christ says this to pilate. Because God set up the principal of authority does not mean that unjust and evil authority are divine. History is an example of this; Hithlar, Stalin, Ida Amin to mention a few. In the conversation between Jesus and Pilate, Jesus told Pilate that he had no authority over Him except the authority that he was giving in the Salvation plan of God. Jesus was the Divine One, not Pilate.
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Post by randy on Aug 30, 2022 0:21:12 GMT
We are not arguing about the nature of sin--we all agree on that. But we would argue whether everything that "originates from God" is "salvational?" That is clearly not true, since many things that originate from God are not "salvational." For example... Matt 5.He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.Abimelek was not experiencing "salvation" when he obeyed God in the matter of not taking Abraham's wife for his own... Gen 20.4 Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? 5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her."If so, if not everything that comes from God is "salvational," then we need to separate what truly is salvational and what is not salvational. Obeying the Lord in the matter of accepting Christ as our life and as our redeemer is what is salvational--not obeying authorities that God set up, who may obey God in their position of authority or not. How do the Apostles view Sarah here? Submission is a beautiful thing when it is done for the Lord. It's difficult to submit to any human being because we are proud, and not always representative of God's character. Anybody who has worked for an employer knows this! We can also obey God by *not* submitting to certain authorities when they tell us to act in a pagan way. We must not do that...ever. You know that!
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