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Post by princess on Sept 15, 2021 14:05:13 GMT
Randy says...
"I agree that the way the world views marriage and the way Christianity views marriage can be somewhat different. But for all, marriage means the same thing--a complete commitment, unto death, of two parties. Gay marriage is indeed a marriage--it is a life-long commitment. But it is not a Christian marriage--it is a pagan marriage. As such, it is not a marriage, nor a commitment, that God will accept as righteous. That being said, there are many things in the pagan world that people do that are not Christian. And God still has to deal with them, whether gay marriage or some other form of pagan marriage. But for the sake of definition, whether it is Christian or not, a life-long commitment of two or more parties to one another, in the most intimate way, is marriage. A marriage does not have to be Christian to be a "marriage." To be accepted by God as of eternal value, any commitment must be Christian in nature. But God sees the heart even of the non-Christian, and judges them based on what they know, and not on what they do not know."
Randy repeats the word commitment many times but can anyone explain the context of commitment?
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Post by foxjj on Sept 15, 2021 15:08:21 GMT
The Bible teaches that marriage in the eyes of God is held as a sacred bond entered into with vows of commitment that are looked upon as a covenant between a man and a woman witnessed by God. Consequently, divorce should only be an option under extreme circumstances. As for remarriage, because of the original marriage vows, to enter into a second marriage is a choice that has to be prayerfully, and carefully weighed.
When as Christians, we look at the teaching’s of Jesus concerning divorce and remarriage, we find that His teachings are very straight forward, such as in the sermon on the mount, recorded in Matthew 5:31-32:
“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”
Mark 10:2-12 also records Jesus’s teaching on divorce and remarriage:
“Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” 3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied. 4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.” 5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. 6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”
Paul also gave guidance regarding divorce and remarriage in 1 Corinthians 7:10-13:
“To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. 12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.”
Let us remember that we have a loving God who understands our humanity, after all He became human in the person of Jesus. While living among us, Jesus experienced our humanity with all of its strengths and weaknesses. It is important to remember that there is only one sin which is the unforgivable sin. Therefore, when as believers we do sin against God’s will for us, we have the opportunity of confessing our sin in repentance as John wrote:
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.” (1 John 1:8-10)
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Post by princess on Sept 16, 2021 12:56:14 GMT
Notice you never gave context to commitment?
Why is everyone having trouble admitting defining marriage is so elusive? Could rationality be disconnected from reality? The apostle Paul says truth is known by what can be seen... Truth when a society circles the drain can be known by what is felt.
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Post by foxjj on Sept 16, 2021 15:39:31 GMT
Princess, my opening sentence above read:”The Bible teaches that marriage in the eyes of God is held as a sacred bond entered into with vows of commitment that are looked upon as a covenant between a man and a woman witnessed by God.”
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Post by randy on Sept 16, 2021 16:21:19 GMT
Randy says... "I agree that the way the world views marriage and the way Christianity views marriage can be somewhat different. But for all, marriage means the same thing--a complete commitment, unto death, of two parties.... Randy repeats the word commitment many times but can anyone explain the context of commitment? I can only guess what you want to know about "commitment." Inside the marriage it means a man and a woman determine to live with one another, and not to entertain thoughts about having any other. In living together, the man's body belongs to the woman, and the woman's body belongs to the man. But they are, if they are Christians, unselfish, and always seek the Lord's kindness in everything, preferring each other over themselves. The man goes about his job to provide means, and the woman goes about her job to provide children. If there are no children, the woman may also provide. Or the woman may be able to manage both children and employment. This commitment exists whether in a Christian marriage or not. Pagan marriage presently allows for homosexual partners. It is also called marriage because it is two (or more) people living together faithfully, and owning each other. But Christianity does not accept homosexuality, and thus cannot sanction homosexual marriage. You seem to avoid any abstractions, and want things to be resolved in a physical sense. Many materialist philosophers were like this too. But they failed to see the spiritual realities that are all around us, and are willfully blind. I hope you recognize the spiritual difference between that inside a Christian marriage and the lack of it in a pagan marriage? Christianity is all about a human will acting in concert with the divine will. When we live in accord with God's word, we will be successful. If we commit our whole life to God's word, as expressed in Christ, we will walk in the Spirit and be saved. Many may not walk in the proper sense of "marriage," as defined by God's word. But that doesn't mean marriage doesn't exist. God's word has determined the existence of marriage, by creating Adam and Eve. All men and women can copy this behavior and experience genuine marriage. But they can also mismanage true marriage, and pervert it. The commitment people make to one another may be genuine, and accord with God's principles of honesty and fidelity. But if the commitment is tarnished by perversion, only God can separate what within a perverted marriage is genuine and what is twisting the word of God. Most definitely, homosexual marriage is marriage, as defined by God's word in the sense of cooperating with official laws and making contracts with one another. But it is *not* true marriage in the sense of marriage that God recognizes as moral.
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Post by princess on Sept 17, 2021 11:49:31 GMT
Princess, my opening sentence above read:”The Bible teaches that marriage in the eyes of God is held as a sacred bond entered into with vows of commitment that are looked upon as a covenant between a man and a woman witnessed by God.” What is the context for commitment that makes marriage different from non marital relationships?
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Post by princess on Sept 17, 2021 11:52:07 GMT
I can only guess what you want to know about "commitment." Inside the marriage it means a man and a woman determine to live with one another, and not to entertain thoughts about having any other. -This doesn't define marriage plus is rather counter intuitive since I could probably get a pastor to support divorce if I am not happy. This makes a cell phone contract more valid than marriage. Tell your cell phone provider you don't feel like paying anymore.
In living together, the man's body belongs to the woman, and the woman's body belongs to the man. But they are, if they are Christians, unselfish, and always seek the Lord's kindness in everything, preferring each other over themselves. -Still doesn't define marriage.
The man goes about his job to provide means, and the woman goes about her job to provide children. If there are no children, the woman may also provide. Or the woman may be able to manage both children and employment. This commitment exists whether in a Christian marriage or not. What a mess! So, basically women are men with wombs.
Pagan marriage presently allows for homosexual partners. It is also called marriage because it is two (or more) people living together faithfully, and owning each other. But Christianity does not accept homosexuality, and thus cannot sanction homosexual marriage. No. Premarital sex leads to cohabitation and opposite sex cohabitation leads to same sex cohabitation
You seem to avoid any abstractions, and want things to be resolved in a physical sense. Many materialist philosophers were like this too. But they failed to see the spiritual realities that are all around us, and are willfully blind. I hope you recognize the spiritual difference between that inside a Christian marriage and the lack of it in a pagan marriage? So what defines a good hammer from a bad hammer is defined not by its physical function but by its spirit? Yep! ignore physicality and a person can define something by how they feel. Form equals function. Sexual sin is defined by the thoughts and feelings of the individual.
Christianity is all about a human will acting in concert with the divine will. When we live in accord with God's word, we will be successful. If we commit our whole life to God's word, as expressed in Christ, we will walk in the Spirit and be saved. Many may not walk in the proper sense of "marriage," as defined by God's word. But that doesn't mean marriage doesn't exist. Lots of words but still doesn't define marriage.
But they can also mismanage true marriage, and pervert it. The commitment people make to one another may be genuine, and accord with God's principles of honesty and fidelity. But if the commitment is tarnished by perversion, only God can separate what within a perverted marriage is genuine and what is twisting the word of God. Yes. It's happening right now.
Most definitely, homosexual marriage is marriage, as defined by God's word in the sense of cooperating with official laws and making contracts with one another. But it is *not* true marriage in the sense of marriage that God recognizes as moral. Then by your standards cohabitation is marriage.
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Post by foxjj on Sept 17, 2021 16:22:45 GMT
Princess, my opening sentence above read:”The Bible teaches that marriage in the eyes of God is held as a sacred bond entered into with vows of commitment that are looked upon as a covenant between a man and a woman witnessed by God.” What is the context for commitment that makes marriage different from non marital relationships? There is no deeper context than what was stated “marriage in the eyes of God is held as a sacred bond entered into with vows of commitment that are looked upon as a covenant between a man and a woman witnessed by God.”
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Post by randy on Sept 17, 2021 16:54:41 GMT
I can only guess what you want to know about "commitment." Inside the marriage it means a man and a woman determine to live with one another, and not to entertain thoughts about having any other.-This doesn't define marriage plus is rather counter intuitive since I could probably get a pastor to support divorce if I am not happy. This makes a cell phone contract more valid than marriage. Tell you cell phone provider you don't feel like paying anymore. In living together, the man's body belongs to the woman, and the woman's body belongs to the man. But they are, if they are Christians, unselfish, and always seek the Lord's kindness in everything, preferring each other over themselves. -Still doesn't define marriage. The man goes about his job to provide means, and the woman goes about her job to provide children. If there are no children, the woman may also provide. Or the woman may be able to manage both children and employment. This commitment exists whether in a Christian marriage or not.What a mess! So, basically women are men with wombs. Pagan marriage presently allows for homosexual partners. It is also called marriage because it is two (or more) people living together faithfully, and owning each other. But Christianity does not accept homosexuality, and thus cannot sanction homosexual marriage.
No. Premarital sex leads to cohabitation and opposite sex cohabitation leads to same sex cohabitation You seem to avoid any abstractions, and want things to be resolved in a physical sense. Many materialist philosophers were like this too. But they failed to see the spiritual realities that are all around us, and are willfully blind. I hope you recognize the spiritual difference between that inside a Christian marriage and the lack of it in a pagan marriage?
So what defines a good hammer from a bad hammer is defined not by its physical function but by its spirit? Yep! ignore physicality and a person can define something by how they feel. Form equals function. A pagan marriage is defined by the thoughts of the individual. Christianity is all about a human will acting in concert with the divine will. When we live in accord with God's word, we will be successful. If we commit our whole life to God's word, as expressed in Christ, we will walk in the Spirit and be saved. Many may not walk in the proper sense of "marriage," as defined by God's word. But that doesn't mean marriage doesn't exist.
Lots of words but still doesn't define marriage. But they can also mismanage true marriage, and pervert it. The commitment people make to one another may be genuine, and accord with God's principles of honesty and fidelity. But if the commitment is tarnished by perversion, only God can separate what within a perverted marriage is genuine and what is twisting the word of God.
Yes. It's happening right now. Most definitely, homosexual marriage is marriage, as defined by God's word in the sense of cooperating with official laws and making contracts with one another. But it is *not* true marriage in the sense of marriage that God recognizes as moral.Then by your standards cohabitation is marriage. I disagree. A complete commitment, intimately, to one another for a lifetime is the very definition of marriage. As I've said repeatedly, it is a *vow*--a lifetime commitment. I wouldn't repeat the word "commitment" so many times if you would recognize what this means. It is a *promise* with certain conditions. And the conditions are a lifetime intimate relationship in which each party owns the other one. You're arguing that someone can fail the commitment, and get somebody to accept that failure as "okay." That's true of all promises, vows, and commitments. Contracts do get broken, and life continues on. Cohabitation *with a promise* is marriage when the promise is life-long. I can't help you if you don't like the difference between men and women--your problem then is with the Creator. We are equals, but we have different jobs inside the marriage. You keep saying my definition of "marriage" isn't marriage, and then you define marriage as a "physicality." What makes your definition different from mine? Yes, things like marriage are determined from heaven, because God determines all things. All things have a spiritual origin in God's word. And so, marriage is a reality created by God when He created Adam and Eve. And it consists of a lifetime of commitment to one another, replete with all of its ups and downs. It is co-habitation with the promise of lifetime service to one another. Beyond this, I don't know what your issue is? To deny the spiritual realities that give things meaning is absurd and unchristian to me. It is *God's word* that gives all things meaning, whether those things are perverted or not. Marriage is from God, and is determined as real by God's word. Men may pervert it, but the reality, even in a perverted state, remains. Claiming it is a purely "physical" thing is itself perverted, in my view. It consists of commitment, contracting, and the emotions of the heart, determining sincerity. But breaking God's rules forbidding homosexuality is sure to corrupt a divine institution like marriage! And cohabitation without a promise of perpetuity is also falling short of what marriage is. I will also add this much. God's word does allow perverted forms of contracts, vows, commitments, and marriages. They still remain as contracts, vows, commitments, and marriages, because God has allowed perversion in history. God has allowed this mix of good with evil only for a time until final judgment. Homosexual marriage is legal in some places, and God has allowed for that reality. But that doesn't mean He accepts it as moral. He doesn't. He has allowed a perverted form of marriage for now, until it's time to judge that as sin.
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Post by princess on Sept 18, 2021 12:36:38 GMT
Hi Randy...
No such reality exists as same sex marriage. Premarital sex and adultery leads to cohabitation and opposite sex cohabitation leads to same sex cohabitation.
You wrote: Marriage is from God, and is determined as real by God's word. Men may pervert it, but the reality, even in a perverted state, remains. Claiming it is a purely "physical" thing is itself perverted, in my view.
Of course, a society in moral decay would consider it perverted and even oppressive to define marriage by the physical observable meaning of the male and female body since this meaning is predetermined by our Creator. Pagans want to be self determining so they desire to move meaning from the body and transfer meaning to the soul so they can self author their own meaning.
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools
I rest my case!
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Post by randy on Sept 18, 2021 17:14:52 GMT
Hi Randy... No such reality exists as same sex marriage. Premarital sex and adultery leads to cohabitation and opposite sex cohabitation leads to same sex cohabitation. You wrote: Marriage is from God, and is determined as real by God's word. Men may pervert it, but the reality, even in a perverted state, remains. Claiming it is a purely "physical" thing is itself perverted, in my view.
Of course, a society in moral decay would consider it perverted and even oppressive to define marriage by the physical observable meaning of the male and female body since this meaning is predetermined by our Creator. Pagans want to be self determining so they desire to move meaning from the body and transfer meaning to the soul so they can self author their own meaning. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became foolsI rest my case! It seems we're just talking past each other? You're suggesting that the spiritual basis of marriage must be located with God's word in order to make marriage a reality. And I agree, that if the spiritual basis of a marriage is not located in God it is not a *moral* marriage, nor a *Christian* marriage. And certainly this was my whole point, that marriage is not just a physicality--more, it must have a spiritual basis, whether in the Self or in God's word. And so, if a marriage has its basis in God's word, then it has a proper spiritual basis, and it a moral marriage, acceptable to God. But that's not how I was reading your statements. When you "define marriage," you're not just asking if a marriage is acceptable to God, or if it is a moral marriage. Rather, you're asking "what defines marriage?" And for most people, that would be how people define it for themselves--and not just how God defines it in the moral sense. If gay marriage exists, then God has allowed it--has tolerated it, but has not sanctioned it as moral. He is just allowing evil things to exist, including evil forms of the institution He created like marriage. And so, in whatever state you find it, marriage exists, including gay marriage. But it is certainly not God's idea of marriage. It exists by God's tolerance, but not by His acceptance. The problem with your view is that when it comes to how people view non-Christian marriages, you would perhaps discount all of them as invalid. And I don't believe this is what God does. He does indeed accept the parts of those marriages that correlate to His word. God accepts contracts, commitments, vows, and cooperation with government institutions. Not everything has to be Christian to exist as realities accepted by God. God does not sanction these non-Christian entities as though approving of all elements of them. He may accept the love and commitment of two people towards each other without approving of "homosexual marriage." He would not approve gay marriage at all, but only the component parts that involve love and commitment to one another in some ways. Certainly, He is not approving of the idea of their being non-Christian. But in a world in a process of choosing for or against salvation, God must accept limited good and a mixture of good and evil while the non-Christian part is in process of being dealt with. The main point here is that gay marriage does, in fact, exist, and God recognizes that. God has allowed that, though He has not approved of it. His hope is that as people work through issues of love and commitment they will realize that intimate relationships and marriages should only operate between opposite genders. But do such marriages exist? Certainly! But they are not marriages that God wants.
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Post by Naama on Sept 18, 2021 18:11:58 GMT
I have never once claimed non christian marriages are invalid. Marriage is universal. There is no such thing as a chrstian or non christian marriage because there is no such thing as a christian or non christian body.
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Post by princess on Sept 19, 2021 12:09:09 GMT
Marty, can you spot the problem?
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Post by randy on Sept 20, 2021 16:11:11 GMT
I have never once claimed non christian marriages are invalid. Marriage is universal. There is no such thing as a chrstian or non christian marriage because there is no such thing as a christian or non christian body. I have no idea what you mean by there not being any such thing as a Christian or non-Christian body? On its face this sounds absurd, but I welcome any explanation from you. If I was to venture a guess, I would say that you're suggesting that material things in the world are not "Christian," unless they are perhaps a Christian object, like a cross? You're suggesting that people are born bodies--not Christian and non-Christian bodies? They are just physical bodies? But to say that a marriage is neither Christian nor non-Christian seems, on its face, absurd, because some marriages are performed in churches and others are not. We cannot, I think, compare marriages to objects that don't inherently have anything sacred about them. For example, when Paul said that Christians can eat meat offered to idols, he was suggesting that meat is a neutral thing, and cannot have paganism radiated into it by its being offered to idols. On the other hand, if people eat the meat thinking it somehow did obtain pagan contamination, then they are spiritually defiling themselves and damaging their consciences. But marriage is an act of devotion, if it is done in conjunction with prayer and dedication to God. As such, it becomes a sacred institution for those who have faith. To say that marriage is strictly neutral, therefore, is absurd to me.
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Post by mfox on Sept 21, 2021 2:17:42 GMT
Marty, can you spot the problem? I haven’t had a lot of time to follow this thread but I think that what you are trying to say Princess is that marriage was defined and started after the banishment of the garden of eden as Adam and Eve only cohabitated in the garden. After Adam and Eve were banished from the garden the marriage union began as the two became one family and intermitly. Eve had to submit and rely on Adam for provision’ protection and leadership. Although this leadership by Adam did fail terribly in the garden. Eve also had to endure the pain of childbirth after sex was introduced and had to rely on Adam to help her deliver and provide for the children. Eves roll was providing the nurturing and care giving. After children were introduced Adam now had to provide for his wife and children. Adam also had to lead the household spiritually which seamed to guide Able in his life but not Cain. Without ceremony or certificate God had a plan for a female roll and a male roll with both their bodies and genders within the marriage which He designed which consisted of their body soul and mind. Thus it wasn’t just cohabitation now but a union both together becoming one spiritualy tualy’ sexually and as a family each knowing and surrendering the other persons minds’ bodies’ needs and rolls within the marriage and family.
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Post by Naama on Sept 21, 2021 6:02:14 GMT
Kinda sort of. Marriage was defined before the fall. I will discuss this in the genesis thread so things don't get misconstrued.
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Post by Naama on Sept 21, 2021 6:10:54 GMT
The meaning of the body is universal so the meaning of marriage is universal.
Lawful marriage steers both sexes into a head on collision with the fall so the difference between a christian and non christian in marriage is our lord and savior showed us we can face a head on collision and sometimes we will get burned.
You cannot experience this in non marriage because sexual sin loves and accepts each other as persons not as a man and a woman.
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Post by Naama on Sept 21, 2021 6:16:56 GMT
No Marty. Marriage was established before the fall and the fall of adam and eve was the refusal of marriage. I can clearly show this but in the genesis thread
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Post by Naama on Sept 21, 2021 6:17:43 GMT
No Marty. Marriage was established before the fall and the fall of adam and eve was the refusal of marriage. I can clearly show this but in the genesis thread
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Post by Naama on Nov 18, 2021 22:11:52 GMT
Marty,
Marriage was created the moment God created and gave meaning to the male and female body.
Marriage existed before the fall because the male and body was created before the fall.
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