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Post by randy on Sept 8, 2021 23:10:22 GMT
Why is her point "well taken?" I do use the Scripture in the way that many understand it today and yesterday. That's exactly what it says! I don't see how it can be read in any other way. The Jews say that the 1st command is to marry and have kids (or something to the effect). God made the genders to want each other, both for social reasons and for biological reasons--none of this is shameful or sinful. But Paul is concerned that this normal desire can lead to sin due to the sin nature that is in us. And so, he would not have us deny ourselves a natural gift to set us up for temptation unless we have such a gift that we really aren't tempted by abstinence. Please explain? Randy, I was acknowledging that the quote was originally addressed to the unmarried and the widowed: “8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” I also pointed out that you were using that Scripture in the way many use it today. Yes, thanks for explaining. Princess confused me by claiming that I responded to her statement in a certain way, and you seemed to agree. I don't believe I responded to her statement about singles and widows at all?
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Post by foxjj on Sept 9, 2021 2:47:06 GMT
The reason that I started this thread is to give people the opportunity to share their understanding and experience with marriage divorce and remarriage. Depending on where we come from in life will define our experience regarding the subject. Consequently I put the thread in controversial knowing that it would bring up different opinions.
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Post by foxjj on Sept 9, 2021 7:12:11 GMT
Divorce has long been a contentious subject in the church. Even before the time of Jesus the subject created much debate in Judaism. As an example of this let’s read of a discussion that Jesus had with the Pharisees:
“And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” (Mathew 19:3-9)
Jesus is very precise in His response to the Pharisees. He is pointing out that in the beginning - when God created man and woman - He had in mind the state of matrimony in which the man would be responsible for the welfare of his wife, who in turn would be responsible for the home and children. The two would live in harmony as one.
So what changed that harmony? Simply stated the answer is sin. After the fall sin brought many changes into God’s perfect creation. Humanity developed, as Jesus said, a hardness of heart. This hardness of heart was not only against God, but also affected our world, including the marriage state, where many became selfish and love for one another cooled bringing friction between husband and wife.
Consequently, where the law of Moses once held “what therefore God has joined together, let not man separate,” it allowed for divorce, and so it is today even among believers. Where at one time divorce was not mentioned among Christians, today it is almost as common as among non church couples. Before anyone thinks that divorce is totally forbidden between believers, remember that Jesus recognized marriages can break down, especially when one partner commits adulatory, thereby braking the marriage vows.
Although divorce can be a devastating experience, especially for the wronged partner and children, God’s Grace can carry each one through. If you have been through a divorce, be you the victim, the child of a divorce, or the one who now regrets their actions, remember that our God understands all our circumstances in life, and is there to bring redemption and healing when we turn to Him. If you have not already turned to Jesus for Salvation, now is the perfect time wherein you can experience that Grace:
“God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”(Ephesians 2:4-10 ESV)
Today, let us give thanks for God’s Redeeming Grace.
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Post by randy on Sept 9, 2021 14:57:29 GMT
Well, timing is good for this subject. My wife recently reconnected with her long-divorced husband as he was dying of cancer, and they both ended their time on this earth on friendly terms.
Also, yesterday a very old friend of ours from church called and told me her ex-husband reconnected with her. He called to apologize for having divorced her many years ago for another woman. He had backslid as a Christian and had got caught up in sexual addiction. But he had now returned to God and church. He just wanted to express his sorrow over his wrongdoing of many years ago.
Forgiveness is real. God is truly kind. We must be sure not to give people liberty to go their own way. At the same time we should never neglect the grace of God, and God's wish to liberate people from their guilt.
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Post by foxjj on Sept 9, 2021 15:36:56 GMT
Thank you for sharing the good news of God’s Grace in action bringing reconciliation Randy.
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Post by foxjj on Sept 11, 2021 16:06:01 GMT
In today’s world marriage is sometimes looked upon as unnecessary because two people can live together in love without a piece of paper called a marriage certificate. From a worldly perspective that may be acceptable, however, for Christians marriage holds deeper significance. In a worldly partnership there are two independent people living together while seeking their own pleasure. On the other hand, when two Christians get married they make their vows in the presence of God, consequently, they consider their vows as sacred and the two became one.
Another important difference in a Christian marriage is that it reflects the love Jesus has for the Church as explained by Paul in Ephesians 5:25-32:
“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.”
With Scripture’s as these to encourage us, we realize that our marriage is worth working on when trials come along. As Christians we have The Lord in our marriage to lead, guide and encourage day by day. His blessings are new every morning when we allow Him into our lives. The love that husband and wife have for one another is enriched by the love of The Lord in their lives. Therefore the two independent people that came into the marriage become one through the love of The Lord. Thus the marriage becomes a safe place in which children can be nurtured.
Someone may say, “that’s all very well, but I know of Christian marriages that are far from that ideal.” This may be true, however, we must always realize that we are human, with human frailties. That been said, the ideal Christian marriage will only live up to that ideal when the married couple have invited Jesus to be The Lord and Redeemer of their lives, as also The Lord of their marriage.
Today, let us continue to look to Jesus as our Redeemer and Lord.
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Post by randy on Sept 11, 2021 22:38:19 GMT
Marriage is a wonderful place to check up how well you're doing with the Lord. You cannot treat your wife or your husband badly, and feel like a good Christian. Any arrogance shown to the other has no place in God's Kingdom. Doing things with the other in mind is the closest thing to Jesus. Well said, brother!
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Post by princess on Sept 12, 2021 12:38:09 GMT
Of course, saying sorry for a divorce many years later is a great thing but virtue signaling is a way to deflect from the root issue. To make matters worse, divorce and remarriage doesn't even apply right now because most marriages are not valid. What the church and state upholds is not marriage but cohabitation and the ceremonial version is called equal or egalitarian marriage.
For example, same sex marriage was the logical outcome of opposite sex cohabitation, not marriage. Cognitive dissonance is going to make most people deny this point even though the point is undeniable.
This is why you guys could not answer even a simple question such as what is the difference between cohabitation and marriage. Answer this question and the issue of divorce and remarriage emerges from the fog.
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Post by randy on Sept 12, 2021 14:53:52 GMT
Of course, saying sorry for a divorce many years later is a great thing but virtue signaling is a way to deflect from the root issue. To make matters worse, divorce and remarriage doesn't even apply right now because most marriages are not valid. What the church and state upholds is not marriage but cohabitation and the ceremonial version is called equal or egalitarian marriage. For example, same sex marriage was the logical outcome of opposite sex cohabitation, not marriage. Cognitive dissonance is going to make most people deny this point even though the point is undeniable. This is why you guys could not answer even a simple question such as what is the difference between cohabitation and marriage. Answer this question and the issue of divorce and remarriage emerges from the fog. These are indeed simple questions, and they have been answered, even if you disagree. The difference between cohabitation and marriage is a matter of taking a vow or not. It is a matter of the level of commitment. Marriage is for life. Cohabitation is non-committal. I agree that the way the world views marriage and the way Christianity views marriage can be somewhat different. But for all, marriage means the same thing--a complete commitment, unto death, of two parties. Gay marriage is indeed a marriage--it is a life-long commitment. But it is not a Christian marriage--it is a pagan marriage. As such, it is not a marriage, nor a commitment, that God will accept as righteous. That being said, there are many things in the pagan world that people do that are not Christian. And God still has to deal with them, whether gay marriage or some other form of pagan marriage. But for the sake of definition, whether it is Christian or not, a life-long commitment of two or more parties to one another, in the most intimate way, is marriage. A marriage does not have to be Christian to be a "marriage." To be accepted by God as of eternal value, any commitment must be Christian in nature. But God sees the heart even of the non-Christian, and judges them based on what they know, and not on what they do not know. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Jesus
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Post by foxjj on Sept 12, 2021 15:54:03 GMT
Of course, saying sorry for a divorce many years later is a great thing but virtue signaling is a way to deflect from the root issue. To make matters worse, divorce and remarriage doesn't even apply right now because most marriages are not valid. What the church and state upholds is not marriage but cohabitation and the ceremonial version is called equal or egalitarian marriage. For example, same sex marriage was the logical outcome of opposite sex cohabitation, not marriage. Cognitive dissonance is going to make most people deny this point even though the point is undeniable. This is why you guys could not answer even a simple question such as what is the difference between cohabitation and marriage. Answer this question and the issue of divorce and remarriage emerges from the fog. As I wrote at the beginning of this thread Princess, the subject can be very controversial. I believe with Randy that we have covered the difference between cohabitation and marriage, both worldly and Christian. However, if we have missed something please explain as it is easy to criticize without contributing to the answer.
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Post by mfox on Sept 12, 2021 19:25:57 GMT
I think what Princess is saying is that God has to be apart of a true marriage as in a contract between a man a woman and God not just a legal ceremony
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Post by foxjj on Sept 13, 2021 7:29:05 GMT
I do believe that we have stated that as a profound truth throughout the thread.
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Post by princess on Sept 13, 2021 12:39:43 GMT
If you guys honestly believe you clearly and coherently answered those questions and also believe same sex relationships is marriage then it's pointless to pursue this topic any further.
Randy, the apostle Paul says claiming ignorance is not valid this on the topic:
"because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
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Post by foxjj on Sept 13, 2021 15:56:37 GMT
Princess, the only mention of gay marriage acknowledged that it is recognized as a marriage in the world according to worldly standards, not by God: “Gay marriage is indeed a marriage--it is a life-long commitment. But it is not a Christian marriage--it is a pagan marriage. As such, it is not a marriage, nor a commitment, that God will accept as righteous.”
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Post by mfox on Sept 14, 2021 0:18:18 GMT
If you guys honestly believe you clearly and coherently answered those questions and also believe same sex relationships is marriage then it's pointless to pursue this topic any further. Randy, the apostle Paul says claiming ignorance is not valid this on the topic: "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
To clarify the world has deemed same sex marriage marriage but not God or the true church including all involved in this discussion
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Post by princess on Sept 14, 2021 12:15:59 GMT
Princess, the only mention of gay marriage acknowledged that it is recognized as a marriage in the world according to worldly standards, not by God: “Gay marriage is indeed a marriage--it is a life-long commitment. But it is not a Christian marriage--it is a pagan marriage. As such, it is not a marriage, nor a commitment, that God will accept as righteous.” No such reality exists as a worldly marriage or Christian marriage or pagan marriage unless reality only exists in our thoughts and imagination The meaning of marriage is universal because the meaning of the male and female body is universal. Marty wrote: "I think what Princess is saying is that God has to be apart of a true marriage as in a contract between a man a woman and God not just a legal ceremony" A ceremony or piece of paper is only valid when it upholds the meaning of the body. God defines marriage because He created the body but marriage exists with or without acknowledgement of God.
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Post by princess on Sept 14, 2021 12:19:04 GMT
Marriage is a wonderful place to check up how well you're doing with the Lord. You cannot treat your wife or your husband badly, and feel like a good Christian. Any arrogance shown to the other has no place in God's Kingdom. Doing things with the other in mind is the closest thing to Jesus. Well said, brother! Sounds nice but still doesn't define marriage from non marriage. The same also applies to tennis partners, business partners friends and collegues
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Post by princess on Sept 14, 2021 12:36:43 GMT
Of course, saying sorry for a divorce many years later is a great thing but virtue signaling is a way to deflect from the root issue. To make matters worse, divorce and remarriage doesn't even apply right now because most marriages are not valid. What the church and state upholds is not marriage but cohabitation and the ceremonial version is called equal or egalitarian marriage. For example, same sex marriage was the logical outcome of opposite sex cohabitation, not marriage. Cognitive dissonance is going to make most people deny this point even though the point is undeniable. This is why you guys could not answer even a simple question such as what is the difference between cohabitation and marriage. Answer this question and the issue of divorce and remarriage emerges from the fog. As I wrote at the beginning of this thread Princess, the subject can be very controversial. I believe with Randy that we have covered the difference between cohabitation and marriage, both worldly and Christian. However, if we have missed something please explain as it is easy to criticize without contributing to the answer. Foxjj, I am trying to challenge you guys to figure things out for yourselves in order to avoid a head on collision. I am not trying to win an argument.
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Post by foxjj on Sept 14, 2021 16:05:16 GMT
I am glad that you are not trying to win an argument Princess. Reality is that we live in a fallen world which has its own standards apart from God’s standards. Consequently worldly marriage has been the standard of the world down through history. God’s standard for marriage is the one that we as Christians accept as the one that we lived by. In so doing we cannot ignore that others live by worldly standards which to them is a right standard. One must live according to their conscious while allowing for others to live according to their understanding of what is right.
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Post by princess on Sept 15, 2021 14:02:00 GMT
Hi Foxjj,
There is no such thing as worldly or non worldly marriage. There is marriage or non marriage. The apostle paul says truth is known by what can be seen not by what is felt or a spidey sense.
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