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Post by journeyman on Aug 29, 2020 21:27:45 GMT
BlueSky, Do you believe doctrines commonly understood as held by so called Calvanism, like the irresistable grace, tottal depravity, etc? I would be in agreement with the Foxes ( Marty and John ) I knew that when you said you couldn't imagine how i came to the conclusion I did.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 29, 2020 21:56:15 GMT
I believe people are saved by faith through grace. Grace is enduring sins being committed against you, instead of destroying. Could you clarify this? Not understanding what your saying. Sure. What was done to Jesus was sinful. He endured all of it without striking back at those who mistreated him. He continued to love his enemies, even as they tortured him. The Father wasn't exacting judgment against sin by the suffering of his Son. Mankind was and needed false witnesses to do it.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 29, 2020 22:20:01 GMT
I believe people are saved by faith through grace. Grace is enduring sins being committed against you, instead of destroying. Thanks do you mean that we need to also forgive as we have been forgiven? If so I agree with you. Yes. We need to follow the Spirit as we go through this world.
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Post by princess on Aug 30, 2020 5:28:54 GMT
Salvation is ultimately a matter of theosis. Jesus redeemed so fully that we might share in the divine life of the Trinity. Athanasius summed up the connection between the Incarnation and our salvation in the famous line: God became human, so that we might become god. As the mediator and author of our salvation, Christ is fully God and fully man and the Incarnate Son unites humanity and divinity in his person.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 30, 2020 7:32:17 GMT
Jesus is saying that The Sprit Himself will reprove sinners: “8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;“ In other words, it is The Spirit who draws and convicts sinners of their need for salvation in Jesus Christ. Yes I know. Do you think people who heard Jonah weren't really saved because God showed up in person later? Jesus wasn't teaching irresistable grace. He was teaching the Holy Spirit is One with him. Same as, It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Jn.6:45 He said this because they were complaining. It's like the scribes who opposed him. We love God but we don't love Jesus. What? Journeyman, no one is claiming that Jesus is teaching irresistible grace in John 16. Nor is He teaching that the Spirit is one with Him. Jesus is clearly teaching that He will send the Spirit in order that he will be an aid to believers, and: “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8 (KJV) As regarding the preaching of Jonah, he was not preaching repentance onto redemptive salvation. Jonah was an Old Testament preacher who taught the law of Moses. After the people of Nineveh repented, they were saved from the punishment that God had threatened: “And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”(Jonah 3:10 (KJV) As with all people of their time, they will be judged under the Law of Moses. “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17 (KJV) “And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”(Acts 13:39 (KJV)
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Post by journeyman on Aug 30, 2020 9:49:00 GMT
Salvation is ultimately a matter of theosis. Jesus redeemed so fully that we might share in the divine life of the Trinity. Athanasius summed up the connection between the Incarnation and our salvation in the famous line: God became human, so that we might become god. As the mediator and author of our salvation, Christ is fully God and fully man and the Incarnate Son unites humanity and divinity in his person. I don't know anything about Athanasius, but if he meant Christians are being made into the image of Christ now where suffering is concerned, I agree.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 30, 2020 10:42:29 GMT
Yes I know. Do you think people who heard Jonah weren't really saved because God showed up in person later? Jesus wasn't teaching irresistable grace. He was teaching the Holy Spirit is One with him. Same as, It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Jn.6:45 He said this because they were complaining. It's like the scribes who opposed him. We love God but we don't love Jesus. What? Journeyman, no one is claiming that Jesus is teaching irresistible grace in John 16. Nor is He teaching that the Spirit is one with Him. Jesus is clearly teaching that He will send the Spirit in order that he will be an aid to believers, and: “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8 (KJV) As regarding the preaching of Jonah, he was not preaching repentance onto redemptive salvation. Jonah was an Old Testament preacher who taught the law of Moses. After the people of Nineveh repented, they were saved from the punishment that God had threatened: “And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”(Jonah 3:10 (KJV) As with all people of their time, they will be judged under the Law of Moses. “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17 (KJV) “And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”(Acts 13:39 (KJV) Fojj, Im glad nobody is teaching irresistable grace. Thank you very much for making that clear. I understand that Jesus is teaching how the Spirit will indwell his followers and reprove the world. Jesus also said that nobody could come to him unless they learned about God. And even though I can teach people some things about God, I wouldn't dare make a statement about myself like that. Would you? As far as Jonah, it is a picture of repentance to redemptive salvation, becase Jesus said they would rise in judgement against unbelieving Jews and condemn them, because they repented. They were gentiles, so they weren't under the law of Moses. Some believe Jonah first ran away from the mission God gave him, because he hated the Assyrians, enemies of Israel and wanted them to be destroyed. How lovely we as believers can be sometimes
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Post by foxjj on Aug 30, 2020 15:32:10 GMT
It’s a bigger post with lots of info in it could you please state it in a nut shell so we can all understand were we are all coming from please. I do value your input on this and in the other forum journeyman I believe people are saved by faith through grace. Grace is enduring sins being committed against you, instead of destroying. Grace is the unmerited favor of God manifested in salvation through Christ. It can also be experienced by the receiving of blessings from God in our lives.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 30, 2020 15:41:43 GMT
Salvation is ultimately a matter of theosis. Jesus redeemed so fully that we might share in the divine life of the Trinity. Athanasius summed up the connection between the Incarnation and our salvation in the famous line: God became human, so that we might become god. As the mediator and author of our salvation, Christ is fully God and fully man and the Incarnate Son unites humanity and divinity in his person. I understood better what Athanasius was saying when I read his Incarnation; “7. What then was God to do? What else but to renew his image in humanity, so that by that image humans might once more be able to know him? But how could this happen, but by the coming of the very Image of God, our Lord Jesus Christ? By human means it was impossible, since they are only copies of that image; neither could angels achieve it, for they are not God’s images. Therefore the Word of God came in person, so that, being the image of the Father, he would be able to recreate humanity afresh in that image.“
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Post by foxjj on Aug 30, 2020 15:50:52 GMT
Salvation is ultimately a matter of theosis. Jesus redeemed so fully that we might share in the divine life of the Trinity. Athanasius summed up the connection between the Incarnation and our salvation in the famous line: God became human, so that we might become god. As the mediator and author of our salvation, Christ is fully God and fully man and the Incarnate Son unites humanity and divinity in his person. I don't know anything about Athanasius, but if he meant Christians are being made into the image of Christ now where suffering is concerned, I agree Athanasius Was the Bishop Of Alexandria during the 300’s. One of his greatest works was in defense of the Incarnation where he wrote: “4. Having taken a body like ours, because we were all under the penalty of death he gave his body up to death in our place, offering it to the Father. He did this out of love, so that we who are counted as having died in him might be freed from the law that meant our ruin.(The power of this law was completely spent in the Lord’s body, and so has no foothold left against his fellow human beings.) …“
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Post by mfox on Aug 30, 2020 20:20:49 GMT
Well, I don’t know what you’ve been listening to for 40 years, but it’s very fringe & cult-like imo. I am concerned here. Can you name someone we may know who follows this view? A movement ? The verse you provided supports our view, not yours. How odd. What I meant was, for 40 years i was taught that God punished his Son in place of me. That's by far the majority view, but it's not true according to Eze.18 and the many other passages of scripture being posted here. I can't name anyone or an organization who believes like i do. The Jew who taught me has passed away. He was outcast from the synagogue as I am now from the church. I'm not bothered anymore by being the minority, or even being alone. Eze.18 says one won't be punished in place of another The repentant are righteous before the Lord. Eze 18 says that one won’t be punished in place of another and the reasons is because one can’t because they are also a sinner only a sinless person can take the place of another
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Post by journeyman on Aug 31, 2020 11:20:11 GMT
I believe people are saved by faith through grace. Grace is enduring sins being committed against you, instead of destroying. Grace is the unmerited favor of God manifested in salvation through Christ. It can also be experienced by the receiving of blessings from God in our lives. Right, Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously 1Pet.2:23
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Post by journeyman on Aug 31, 2020 12:25:40 GMT
I don't know anything about Athanasius, but if he meant Christians are being made into the image of Christ now where suffering is concerned, I agree Athanasius Was the Bishop Of Alexandria during the 300’s. One of his greatest works was in defense of the Incarnation where he wrote: “4. Having taken a body like ours, because we were all under the penalty of death he gave his body up to death in our place, offering it to the Father. He did this out of love, so that we who are counted as having died in him might be freed from the law that meant our ruin.(The power of this law was completely spent in the Lord’s body, and so has no foothold left against his fellow human beings.) …“ Thanks again foxjj. I'm happy to disagree with Athanasius then, as there is no salvation without repentance and we repent because what was done to God was wrong.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 31, 2020 12:34:32 GMT
What I meant was, for 40 years i was taught that God punished his Son in place of me. That's by far the majority view, but it's not true according to Eze.18 and the many other passages of scripture being posted here. I can't name anyone or an organization who believes like i do. The Jew who taught me has passed away. He was outcast from the synagogue as I am now from the church. I'm not bothered anymore by being the minority, or even being alone. Eze.18 says one won't be punished in place of another The repentant are righteous before the Lord. Eze 18 says that one won’t be punished in place of another and the reasons is because one can’t because they are also a sinner only a sinless person can take the place of another It never saus that. It says, Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?. vs.23
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Post by Naama on Sept 2, 2020 21:06:13 GMT
Foxjj,
The context of athanasius is death not penal substititionary atonement.
The entire problem is we tend to view sin as a legal problem. Its like asking a lawyer to diagnose diabetes? A lawyer will ask if you ate right, excercised and kept your weight down then you cannot legally have diabetes.
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Post by Naama on Sept 2, 2020 21:09:17 GMT
journeyman
You do realize just because athanasius doesn't list repenteance in every instance doesn't mean he doesn't support it?
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Post by foxjj on Sept 2, 2020 23:40:23 GMT
Foxjj, The context of athanasius is death not penal substititionary atonement. The entire problem is we tend to view sin as a legal problem. Its like asking a lawyer to diagnose diabetes? A lawyer will ask if you ate right, excercised and kept your weight down then you cannot legally have diabetes. Thank you for your comments Naama. I do not see sin as a legal problem, more as spiritual failure, or even rebellion against God. Athanasius May not have used the term penal substitutionary atonement, (which is not a terminology that I use) however, he did teach that Jesus died as a sacrifice in our place which is what I was trying to help journeyman to understand: “Having taken a body like ours, because we were all under the penalty of death he gave his body up to death in our place, offering it to the Father. He did this out of love, so that we who are counted as having died in him might be freed from the law that meant our ruin.(The power of this law was completely spent in the Lord’s body, and so has no foothold left against his fellow human beings.) …”
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Post by journeyman on Sept 3, 2020 9:49:40 GMT
journeyman You do realize just because athanasius doesn't list repenteance in every instance doesn't mean he doesn't support it? No I didn't, but if he does I'm glad. I was just pointing out to foxjj that repentance is the result of realizing that we have sinned against God. That God freely chose to suffer abuse from mankind doesn't mean he did so in place of mankind. It means mankind showed their hate for God, “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.” Rom.15:3 they have hated both me and my Father. Jn.15:24
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