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Post by mfox on Aug 19, 2020 19:05:40 GMT
Can’t fathom how you come to this conclusion brother. Interesting. I came to this conclusion because, along with what i already cited from scripture, Jesus said, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Mt.18:32 Jesus didn't die as a substitute for sinners. He came to tell us that God is merciful, forgiving the repentant, and was murdered by those who said he was sinful. God never looked at his Son as sinful. The verse below shows that Jesus became a substitute for us He actually became sin for us 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 19, 2020 19:12:48 GMT
Sorry do not agree that the theologians got it wrong as you wrote in the previous post. They are from all branches of Christianity who devoted their lives to studying and teaching Scripture. Like Paul and the other NT writers they understand the principle of blood sacrifices made in the old Covenant. Consequently, when Paul wrote those passengers that you quoted he did so with the understanding of Jesus’s substitutional blood sacrifice on behalf of our sin. Regarding your quote from Matthew. When we read the complete section we can see that Jesus was addressing the fact that the Jewish leaders had been unfaithful to the teaching of God’s prophets and had not recognized His Messiahship, consequently the Kingdom of God would now be offered to the Gentiles. Matthew 21:33-46 (KJV) 33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet. I understand that many of the Jewish religious leaders, who devoted their lives to scripture study, rejected the Messiah. People who think teachers of the NT could never misinterpret what Jesus and the Apostles taught better think again. Now that is a very arrogant statement. Are you claiming that you are the only one who can understand what Jesus and the Apostles taught over men and women who have devoted their lives to the teaching of Scripture under the anointing of the Holy Spirit down through history? So, do you admit that you miss quoted Jesus’s teaching in Mathew 21?
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Post by journeyman on Aug 19, 2020 20:17:31 GMT
I came to this conclusion because, along with what i already cited from scripture, Jesus said, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Mt.18:32 Jesus didn't die as a substitute for sinners. He came to tell us that God is merciful, forgiving the repentant, and was murdered by those who said he was sinful. God never looked at his Son as sinful. The verse below shows that Jesus became a substitute for us He actually became sin for us 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Jesus only appeared as sin to those who thought of him as being a law breaker. He was falsely accused of being a sinner, a blasphemer. In Gal.3:13, Paul also says Jesus became a curse for us, but when looking at the scripture he cites (Deut.21:23), we can see that Paul doesnt mean in God's eyes, because to be a curse by janging on a tree, the law says one must have committed a sin worthy of death, which Jesus didnt (please see Deut.21:22). The only ones looking at Jesus as sin were the ungodly, not his Father.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 19, 2020 20:30:08 GMT
I understand that many of the Jewish religious leaders, who devoted their lives to scripture study, rejected the Messiah. People who think teachers of the NT could never misinterpret what Jesus and the Apostles taught better think again. Now that is a very arrogant statement. Are you claiming that you are the only one who can understand what Jesus and the Apostles taught over men and women who have devoted their lives to the teaching of Scripture under the anointing of the Holy Spirit down through history? So, do you admit that you miss quoted Jesus’s teaching in Mathew 21? I never said or implied that I'm the only one who knows the truth. You could probably find believers on the internet who don't believe in substitution. I'm also not claiming I know everyone who has the Holy Spirit and who doesn't, but I don't believe substitutionary sacrifice is a teaching from the Holy Spirit, because it disagrees with scripture. I didn't misquote Matthew. The Lord forgave the servant because he was sorry. The fact that the servant then acted in an ungodly manner afterward is immaterial, because the Lord then decided to teach him the hard way.
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Post by mfox on Aug 20, 2020 1:15:20 GMT
The verse below shows that Jesus became a substitute for us He actually became sin for us 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Jesus only appeared as sin to those who thought of him as being a law breaker. He was falsely accused of being a sinner, a blasphemer. In Gal.3:13, Paul also says Jesus became a curse for us, but when looking at the scripture he cites (Deut.21:23), we can see that Paul doesnt mean in God's eyes, because to be a curse by janging on a tree, the law says one must have committed a sin worthy of death, which Jesus didnt (please see Deut.21:22). The only ones looking at Jesus as sin were the ungodly, not his Father. Of course Jesus never sinned God can’t sin but Paul wrote Corinthians and Paul here says God made Him sin for us.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 20, 2020 8:54:23 GMT
Jesus only appeared as sin to those who thought of him as being a law breaker. He was falsely accused of being a sinner, a blasphemer. In Gal.3:13, Paul also says Jesus became a curse for us, but when looking at the scripture he cites (Deut.21:23), we can see that Paul doesnt mean in God's eyes, because to be a curse by janging on a tree, the law says one must have committed a sin worthy of death, which Jesus didnt (please see Deut.21:22). The only ones looking at Jesus as sin were the ungodly, not his Father. Of course Jesus never sinned God can’t sin but Paul wrote Corinthians and Paul here says God made Him sin for us. He only appeared that way to those who didn't know him. We have a law, and by our law he ought to die Jn.19:7 Not true.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 20, 2020 12:55:09 GMT
If people would consider this,
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom.8:3
Paul doesn't mean God condemned his Son as sin. He means Jesus put sin to death by not committing sin, because the next verse says,
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom.8:4
The "righteous of the law" isn't to condemn an innocent man. It's to obey all of God's command and only Jesus could do that. So "the righteousness of the law" couldn't hold him in death, so we walk after the Spirit by faith and put the body of flesh to death also. Read the chapter. That's what Paul is really saying. He says it other places too,
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Col.3:5
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.5:24
So Jesus only appeared as sinful flesh according to the law.. His resurrection proved otherwise.
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Post by mfox on Aug 20, 2020 15:16:09 GMT
Of course Jesus never sinned God can’t sin but Paul wrote Corinthians and Paul here says God made Him sin for us. He only appeared that way to those who didn't know him. We have a law, and by our law he ought to die Jn.19:7 Not true. Why did Jesus on the cross say "my God my God why have you forsaken me?"
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Post by mfox on Aug 20, 2020 15:20:47 GMT
If people would consider this, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom.8:3 Paul doesn't mean God condemned his Son as sin. He means Jesus put sin to death by not committing sin, because the next verse says, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom.8:4 The "righteous of the law" isn't to condemn an innocent man. It's to obey all of God's command and only Jesus could do that. So "the righteousness of the law" couldn't hold him in death, so we walk after the Spirit by faith and put the body of flesh to death also. Read the chapter. That's what Paul is really saying. He says it other places too, Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Col.3:5 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.5:24 So Jesus only appeared as sinful flesh according to the law.. His resurrection proved otherwise. What does the verse below mean to you? 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Paul actually says that God made Jesus sin for us
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Post by journeyman on Aug 20, 2020 16:08:32 GMT
He only appeared that way to those who didn't know him. We have a law, and by our law he ought to die Jn.19:7 Not true. Why did Jesus on the cross say "my God my God why have you forsaken me?" Because the ungodly were mocking him hanging on the cross, as though God had forsaken him. So Jesus quoted a Psalm which teaches that God never forsakes the righteous. In fact, the Psalm Jesus quoted contains the misguided and filthy slurs they hurled at him. Please read the Psalm.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 20, 2020 16:13:59 GMT
If people would consider this, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom.8:3 Paul doesn't mean God condemned his Son as sin. He means Jesus put sin to death by not committing sin, because the next verse says, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom.8:4 The "righteous of the law" isn't to condemn an innocent man. It's to obey all of God's command and only Jesus could do that. So "the righteousness of the law" couldn't hold him in death, so we walk after the Spirit by faith and put the body of flesh to death also. Read the chapter. That's what Paul is really saying. He says it other places too, Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Col.3:5 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.5:24 So Jesus only appeared as sinful flesh according to the law.. His resurrection proved otherwise. What does the verse below mean to you? 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Paul actually says that God made Jesus sin for us It means the religious leaders thought of God as sin, because he looked like any person.
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Post by Naama on Aug 20, 2020 19:09:31 GMT
A big problem is substitutionary atonement was never preached or heard of until the 11th century until Anselm hinted at it but was developed by calvin the 16th century to support another unheard of doctrine called tulip. The majority of christians don't believe it
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Post by Naama on Aug 20, 2020 19:41:42 GMT
I meant penal substitution.
The only critter to have sins place on it was the scapegoat....and it lived. No jew would eat a lamb with sin placed on it because this would make the animal impure. Were sins placed on barley and sacrificed
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Post by journeyman on Aug 21, 2020 13:42:07 GMT
The scriptures teach that mankind punished Jesus and that Jesus patiently endured this abuse instead of destroying us. That's the grace of outlr Lord.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 21, 2020 16:49:13 GMT
Thank you for sharing your understanding regarding the substitution sacrifice of Jesus journeyman. It is obvious that we will not agree on this subject. However it is a very important truth to me because, through the substitution sacrifice of Jesus my sins have been forgiven and I have become a child of God (Romans 8:14-16) Allow me to share a few of the scriptures that teach how Jesus took upon Himself the punishment of our sins in obedience to The Father’s will.
Romans 3:21-26 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
1 Peter 2:23-25 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
1 Peter 3:18 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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Post by Naama on Aug 21, 2020 18:17:25 GMT
Death is not God's punishment for sin but the result of sin. Because God said Adam would die for sin doesn't mean God killed Adam for sinning. If God punished sin with death then Jesus defeated God's will...this pits the Trunity against itself.
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Post by Naama on Aug 21, 2020 18:58:24 GMT
You are all fine upstanding men. I have read your posts foxjj and you are the real deal and a real gentleman. I love your posts and have learned much and can keep learning from you.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 21, 2020 19:46:57 GMT
Thank you Princess. We also appreciate your wisdom. The Lord is good and His Grace enables each one.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 22, 2020 7:30:50 GMT
Thank you for sharing your understanding regarding the substitution sacrifice of Jesus journeyman. It is obvious that we will not agree on this subject. However it is a very important truth to me because, through the substitution sacrifice of Jesus my sins have been forgiven and I have become a child of God (Romans 8:14-16) Allow me to share a few of the scriptures that teach how Jesus took upon Himself the punishment of our sins in obedience to The Father’s will. Romans 3:21-26 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 1 Peter 2:23-25 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. 1 Peter 3:18 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Thanks foxjj, but we don't agree at all. I was taught what i know by a Jew who loved Jesus and needed to hit me in head with a sledgehammer to break through the false teaching I was indoctrinated with. The truth is important to me also. You said, "Jesus took upon Himself the punishment of our sins in obedience to The Father’s will." Jesus took upon himself unjust punishment at the hands of sinners in obedience to the Fathers will. You quoted 1Pet.2. Here's the context, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:1Pet.2:20-21 The example Jesus left us is that if we do well, if we live for God, the ungodly will persecute us. You quoted 1Pet.3. Here's the context, For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 1Pet.3:17 The will of God is that all who live godly in Christ will suffer persecution as Jesus did. Why? Look at Rom.3 again. It shows God's divine forbearance, passing over sins, his righteousness at this present time. Please just listen. What was done to Jesus was sinful. He bore it. This is what the Apostles are saying. I refused to believe the truth of this for decades. I disagreed with that Jew the same you're disagreeing with me now. He said, God doesn't punish the innocent in place of the guilty. He was right.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 22, 2020 16:31:38 GMT
Please give me your understanding of 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (NKJV) 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
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