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Post by mfox on Aug 28, 2020 5:22:01 GMT
Foxjj, I understand it isn't the suffering of anyone except Christ which atones for us, as Paul rhetorically asked, "was Paul crucified for you?" 1Cor.1:13, but atonement isn't accomplished by Christ dying in place of sinners. It's accomplished by faith in what Jesus taught and we believe because he died and rose again. He brings the believing, the ones who come humbly, into oneness with himself by the Holy Spirit, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jn.14:23 This is how people are born again. The reason I asked about whether you believe in so called "points of Calvanism", is because your comment that salvation comes from hearing the gospel and the Holy Spirit enlightening us, as if hearing the gospel wasn't a way the Holy Spirit enlightens us to begin with. That, along with the terminology of Jn.6:44 from the version of the Bible you're quoting from, where no one can come to Christ unless the Father "enables" him, gives the impression that God may not want someone to come to Christ, which I believe is heresy. I also don't like labels, but for the purpose of understanding where you're coming from, I asked whether you believe in doctrines commonly understood as points of Calvanism. So when you read that no one can come to Jesus unless God "enables" him, do you believe the scripture is speaking of "irresistable grace" Im asking because I disagree with such teachings. My position on Jn.6 is that Jesus said no one can come to me unless the Father draws him, because to come to Christ, you must love God. Jesus was identifying himself with God. We're "drawn" to God by the way God is. Where the Hebrews put the blood of the passover lamb on their dwelling places to avoid judgement, that also was for producing humbleness in the people, Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us 1Cor.5:7 God wants all to be saved but God also knows who will respond to Him this I believe that God calls those ones by His Spirit
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Post by mfox on Aug 28, 2020 5:28:26 GMT
I think we should all define our understanding of salvation so that we can understand where we’re coming from in this discussion.
I believe that the basics of salvation is living eternally with God in heaven through accepting Jesus as our Lord and saviour. But Jesus didn’t just come to bring us eternal life but also an abundant life which is continuing to become Christ like a deeper salvation.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 28, 2020 8:25:33 GMT
God knew before each one was born who would turn in repentance to Him. Paul shows this when he wrote in Ephesians 1:3-4: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.”
In verse’s 14 and 15, of John Chapter 10, Jesus said: “I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father.” This is a very powerful statement. Jesus is saying that you and I can know Him, just as The Father knows Him. Humanly speaking this seems imposable. How can a sinful human know the sinless Son of God in the same way that the Father of Glory knows him?
For this to happen in a persons life, a spiritual rebirth needs to take place. The Holy Spirit moves upon our hearts exposing our sinful nature. However, he dose not leave us there, because he also reveals unto us our need of a Savior. Through the Holy Spirit, we see Jesus for the first time as our Redeemer and Lord. We receive a repentant heart, where we recognize our sin for the vile thing that it truly is.
Through The Spirit, Scripture reveals that Jesus died for our sin such as: “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”(Romans 5:6-8)
Scripture also gives promises of a Heavenly home when we read in John 14:1-3 how Jesus spoke these words of comfort to His disciples: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” As Christians, we see those words of comfort as promises intended as encouragement for all who followed Jesus. Consequently, a world pandemic, although dangerous, does not grip Christians with dread because, we have hope beyond this life. With such wonderful promises from The Lord we experience peace because of His love and protection.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 28, 2020 14:32:37 GMT
Foxjj, I understand it isn't the suffering of anyone except Christ which atones for us, as Paul rhetorically asked, "was Paul crucified for you?" 1Cor.1:13, but atonement isn't accomplished by Christ dying in place of sinners. It's accomplished by faith in what Jesus taught and we believe because he died and rose again. He brings the believing, the ones who come humbly, into oneness with himself by the Holy Spirit, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jn.14:23 This is how people are born again. The reason I asked about whether you believe in so called "points of Calvanism", is because your comment that salvation comes from hearing the gospel and the Holy Spirit enlightening us, as if hearing the gospel wasn't a way the Holy Spirit enlightens us to begin with. That, along with the terminology of Jn.6:44 from the version of the Bible you're quoting from, where no one can come to Christ unless the Father "enables" him, gives the impression that God may not want someone to come to Christ, which I believe is heresy. I also don't like labels, but for the purpose of understanding where you're coming from, I asked whether you believe in doctrines commonly understood as points of Calvanism. So when you read that no one can come to Jesus unless God "enables" him, do you believe the scripture is speaking of "irresistable grace" Im asking because I disagree with such teachings. My position on Jn.6 is that Jesus said no one can come to me unless the Father draws him, because to come to Christ, you must love God. Jesus was identifying himself with God. We're "drawn" to God by the way God is. Where the Hebrews put the blood of the passover lamb on their dwelling places to avoid judgement, that also was for producing humbleness in the people, Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us 1Cor.5:7 God wants all to be saved but God also knows who will respond to Him this I believe that God calls those ones by His Spirit I believe God wants all to be saved and calls everyone by his Spirit, holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pet.1:21 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.Mt. 10:20
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Post by journeyman on Aug 28, 2020 14:48:15 GMT
I think we should all define our understanding of salvation so that we can understand where we’re coming from in this discussion. I believe that the basics of salvation is living eternally with God in heaven through accepting Jesus as our Lord and saviour. But Jesus didn’t just come to bring us eternal life but also an abundant life which is continuing to become Christ like a deeper salvation. I'll tell you what I don't believe. I don't believe people can't recognize their sin and need for forgiveness without the Holy Spirit first indwelling them, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act.19:2 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act.2:38
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Post by mfox on Aug 28, 2020 16:51:14 GMT
I think we should all define our understanding of salvation so that we can understand where we’re coming from in this discussion. I believe that the basics of salvation is living eternally with God in heaven through accepting Jesus as our Lord and saviour. But Jesus didn’t just come to bring us eternal life but also an abundant life which is continuing to become Christ like a deeper salvation. I'll tell you what I don't believe. I don't believe people can't recognize their sin and need for forgiveness without the Holy Spirit first indwelling them, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act.19:2 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act.2:38 Okay thanks can you now tell us what you do believe what salvation as a whole is?
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Post by Naama on Aug 28, 2020 18:30:26 GMT
Mfox
Our eternal destiny is not in heaven as disembodied souls but in new bodies in a new heavens and earth.
Christian spirituality understands personhood as a unity of mind body and soul but the most important is the body.
Do you see how everything is non physical? Faith alone, salvation as mental function alone, spirutual not religious and eternity in heaven, nirvana or the elusian fields.
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Post by mfox on Aug 28, 2020 18:48:42 GMT
Mfox Our eternal destiny is not in heaven as disembodied souls but in new bodies in a new heavens and earth. Christian spirituality understands personhood as a unity of mind body and soul but the most important is the body. Do you see how everything is non physical? Faith alone, salvation as mental function alone, spirutual not religious and eternity in heaven, nirvana or the elusian fields. Thanks I get what your saying that’s why I stated that salvation isn’t just spiritually saved as being in heaven for eternity that’s just the beginning of it it’s also becoming more Christ like but what is your understanding of salvation? I’m trying to get everyone’s view of it so we can understand what each person is saying I think that there is confusion between us all
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Post by foxjj on Aug 28, 2020 19:11:26 GMT
I think we should all define our understanding of salvation so that we can understand where we’re coming from in this discussion. I believe that the basics of salvation is living eternally with God in heaven through accepting Jesus as our Lord and saviour. But Jesus didn’t just come to bring us eternal life but also an abundant life which is continuing to become Christ like a deeper salvation. I'll tell you what I don't believe. I don't believe people can't recognize their sin and need for forgiveness without the Holy Spirit first indwelling them, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act.19:2 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act.2:38 John 16:5-9 (KJV) 5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
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Post by journeyman on Aug 29, 2020 0:11:54 GMT
I'll tell you what I don't believe. I don't believe people can't recognize their sin and need for forgiveness without the Holy Spirit first indwelling them, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act.19:2 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act.2:38 Okay thanks can you now tell us what you do believe what salvation as a whole is? I already have on page 4 of this thread, 5th post from the bottom.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 29, 2020 0:23:35 GMT
I'll tell you what I don't believe. I don't believe people can't recognize their sin and need for forgiveness without the Holy Spirit first indwelling them, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act.19:2 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act.2:38 John 16:5-9 (KJV) 5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; So the Spirit speaks through believers so that unbelievers may come to faith in Jesus, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe 1Cor.1:21 I don't see what the problem is.
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Post by BlueSky on Aug 29, 2020 0:41:27 GMT
God knew before each one was born who would turn in repentance to Him. Paul shows this when he wrote in Ephesians 1:3-4: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.” In verse’s 14 and 15, of John Chapter 10, Jesus said: “I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father.” This is a very powerful statement. Jesus is saying that you and I can know Him, just as The Father knows Him. Humanly speaking this seems imposable. How can a sinful human know the sinless Son of God in the same way that the Father of Glory knows him? For this to happen in a persons life, a spiritual rebirth needs to take place. The Holy Spirit moves upon our hearts exposing our sinful nature. However, he dose not leave us there, because he also reveals unto us our need of a Savior. Through the Holy Spirit, we see Jesus for the first time as our Redeemer and Lord. We receive a repentant heart, where we recognize our sin for the vile thing that it truly is. Through The Spirit, Scripture reveals that Jesus died for our sin such as: “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”(Romans 5:6-8) Scripture also gives promises of a Heavenly home when we read in John 14:1-3 how Jesus spoke these words of comfort to His disciples: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” As Christians, we see those words of comfort as promises intended as encouragement for all who followed Jesus. Consequently, a world pandemic, although dangerous, does not grip Christians with dread because, we have hope beyond this life. With such wonderful promises from The Lord we experience peace because of His love and protection. This needs to be said again. Thanks John.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 29, 2020 1:07:23 GMT
God knew before each one was born who would turn in repentance to Him. Paul shows this when he wrote in Ephesians 1:3-4: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.” In verse’s 14 and 15, of John Chapter 10, Jesus said: “I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father.” This is a very powerful statement. Jesus is saying that you and I can know Him, just as The Father knows Him. Humanly speaking this seems imposable. How can a sinful human know the sinless Son of God in the same way that the Father of Glory knows him? For this to happen in a persons life, a spiritual rebirth needs to take place. The Holy Spirit moves upon our hearts exposing our sinful nature. However, he dose not leave us there, because he also reveals unto us our need of a Savior. Through the Holy Spirit, we see Jesus for the first time as our Redeemer and Lord. We receive a repentant heart, where we recognize our sin for the vile thing that it truly is. Through The Spirit, Scripture reveals that Jesus died for our sin such as: “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”(Romans 5:6-8) Scripture also gives promises of a Heavenly home when we read in John 14:1-3 how Jesus spoke these words of comfort to His disciples: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” As Christians, we see those words of comfort as promises intended as encouragement for all who followed Jesus. Consequently, a world pandemic, although dangerous, does not grip Christians with dread because, we have hope beyond this life. With such wonderful promises from The Lord we experience peace because of His love and protection. This needs to be said again. Thanks John. BlueSky, Do you believe doctrines commonly understood as held by so called Calvanism, like the irresistable grace, tottal depravity, etc?
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Post by mfox on Aug 29, 2020 1:48:37 GMT
Okay thanks can you now tell us what you do believe what salvation as a whole is? I already have on page 4 of this thread, 5th post from the bottom. It’s a bigger post with lots of info in it could you please state it in a nut shell so we can all understand were we are all coming from please. I do value your input on this and in the other forum journeyman
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Post by foxjj on Aug 29, 2020 5:36:01 GMT
John 16:5-9 (KJV) 5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; So the Spirit speaks through believers so that unbelievers may come to faith in Jesus, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe 1Cor.1:21 I don't see what the problem is. Jesus is saying that The Sprit Himself will reprove sinners: “8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;“ In other words, it is The Spirit who draws and convicts sinners of their need for salvation in Jesus Christ.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 29, 2020 6:55:45 GMT
I already have on page 4 of this thread, 5th post from the bottom. It’s a bigger post with lots of info in it could you please state it in a nut shell so we can all understand were we are all coming from please. I do value your input on this and in the other forum journeyman I believe people are saved by faith through grace. Grace is enduring sins being committed against you, instead of destroying.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 29, 2020 7:38:38 GMT
So the Spirit speaks through believers so that unbelievers may come to faith in Jesus, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe 1Cor.1:21 I don't see what the problem is. Jesus is saying that The Sprit Himself will reprove sinners: “8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;“ In other words, it is The Spirit who draws and convicts sinners of their need for salvation in Jesus Christ. Yes I know. Do you think people who heard Jonah weren't really saved because God showed up in person later? Jesus wasn't teaching irresistable grace. He was teaching the Holy Spirit is One with him. Same as, It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Jn.6:45 He said this because they were complaining. It's like the scribes who opposed him. We love God but we don't love Jesus. What?
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Post by BlueSky on Aug 29, 2020 13:17:02 GMT
This needs to be said again. Thanks John. BlueSky, Do you believe doctrines commonly understood as held by so called Calvanism, like the irresistable grace, tottal depravity, etc? I would be in agreement with the Foxes ( Marty and John ) It’s not a subject I’ve done a great deal of studying/research on, but I understand the general idea(s) of the debate that rages in some circles. It doesn’t interest me that much ( like say how Genesis or eschatology does not Overly interest some like they do me ) I’m trusting that there’s a mystery(s) at work here that fully cannot be grasped by human minds.
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Post by BlueSky on Aug 29, 2020 13:20:13 GMT
It’s a bigger post with lots of info in it could you please state it in a nut shell so we can all understand were we are all coming from please. I do value your input on this and in the other forum journeyman I believe people are saved by faith through grace. Grace is enduring sins being committed against you, instead of destroying. Could you clarify this? Not understanding what your saying.
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Post by mfox on Aug 29, 2020 18:59:18 GMT
It’s a bigger post with lots of info in it could you please state it in a nut shell so we can all understand were we are all coming from please. I do value your input on this and in the other forum journeyman I believe people are saved by faith through grace. Grace is enduring sins being committed against you, instead of destroying. Thanks do you mean that we need to also forgive as we have been forgiven? If so I agree with you. I believe princess was also saying that salvation is also continuing as in baptism and becoming Christ like that it’s not just be saved from eternal death
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