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Post by randy on Jun 15, 2021 16:13:39 GMT
This subject is controversial, but I'd like to share my opinion that God saves nations, as well as individuals. These two concepts are, however, different in their substance. Individual Salvation is a matter of being spiritually reborn, and completely changed on the inside into a new creature so that God can be properly put 1st in everything. But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastructure of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed by the interrelationship of many unique talents. God wishes to save both individuals and nations in this way.
National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime, such as deliverance from an enemy. It is the preservation of the entire national structure against the threat of some outside force wishing to destroy it. The OT Scriptures were focused many times on the preservation of the nation Israel, because God promised Abraham natural descendants would form into a nation and an eternal testimony to His faithfulness. It was a reward for the righteousness of Abraham in his response to God's word.
I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve. We know, from the OT stories, that Israel succeeded as a nation when they were righteous, but fell as a nation when they turned against God's word and rebelled against it.
Though there are many prophecies in the Scriptures that speak of many nations bringing glory to the Lord, and causing His glory to be global, not much is mentioned specifically of "Christian nations." And so, some get the idea that since Israel seemed to have passed away, God doesn't save nations anymore.
But the reality is, God didn't mention "Christian nations" specifically because they had not yet developed in the time of the writing of the NT Scriptures. Historically, God fulfilled the 1st stage in His promises to Abraham by 1st gathering Israel as a nation, and then gathering Christian nations. God had also promised Abraham a family of faith among nations.
The last stage in fulfilling these promises God will send Christ back to judge the world, so that nations can no longer be oppressed and coerced to fall from their Christian faith. When Christ returns, both Israel and many nations will, I believe, become permanent Christian nations.
Just thought I would share this for your interest. Those who have turned against the idea of nations being saved by God are missing out, I think. They don't realize that God is restoring Israel as a nation, after all. Though Israel isn't Christian yet, God may be preparing them for final judgment before He saves them.
Furthermore, it is to our benefit to believe that nations can be saved. By the example of Israel we know that when we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ and live in righteousness, God will hear our prayers and deliver our nation. If we don't know this, we won't testify to the righteousness our nation needs to be saved! Even if the majority in our nation don't listen, it is still necessary to preach the truth of Christian righteousness, because God will use this testimony to hold those who hear accountable. He can then judge and remove the wicked to make a better place for those who are righteous.
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Post by foxjj on Jun 15, 2021 18:44:22 GMT
Thank you for sharing your interesting post Randy. It is a good thing to pray for salvation for our fellow countryman. It also goes without saying that sharing the Gospel should be a priority. However, I do not see in Scripture where nations will be saved as in saved unto Salvation from sin. The history of the the Old Testament is an example of national failure in faithfulness to God. The Gospel is preached as a one on one Salvation, not national salvation. Although there have been nations that had some evidence of what we might call Christian government for a short time which sadly did not last long. The corruption of politics does not allow for Christian standards as a reality because, to the world it shows weakness not strength. Jesus came to save sinners not nations. This is also evident in the final judgment where people are judged for their personal sins not what nation they lived in.
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Post by mfox on Jun 16, 2021 22:59:38 GMT
This subject is controversial, but I'd like to share my opinion that God saves nations, as well as individuals. These two concepts are, however, different in their substance. Individual Salvation is a matter of being spiritually reborn, and completely changed on the inside into a new creature so that God can be properly put 1st in everything. But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastructure of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed by the interrelationship of many unique talents. God wishes to save both individuals and nations in this way. National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime, such as deliverance from an enemy. It is the preservation of the entire national structure against the threat of some outside force wishing to destroy it. The OT Scriptures were focused many times on the preservation of the nation Israel, because God promised Abraham natural descendants would form into a nation and an eternal testimony to His faithfulness. It was a reward for the righteousness of Abraham in his response to God's word. I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve. We know, from the OT stories, that Israel succeeded as a nation when they were righteous, but fell as a nation when they turned against God's word and rebelled against it. Though there are many prophecies in the Scriptures that speak of many nations bringing glory to the Lord, and causing His glory to be global, not much is mentioned specifically of "Christian nations." And so, some get the idea that since Israel seemed to have passed away, God doesn't save nations anymore. But the reality is, God didn't mention "Christian nations" specifically because they had not yet developed in the time of the writing of the NT Scriptures. Historically, God fulfilled the 1st stage in His promises to Abraham by 1st gathering Israel as a nation, and then gathering Christian nations. God had also promised Abraham a family of faith among nations. The last stage in fulfilling these promises God will send Christ back to judge the world, so that nations can no longer be oppressed and coerced to fall from their Christian faith. When Christ returns, both Israel and many nations will, I believe, become permanent Christian nations. Just thought I would share this for your interest. Those who have turned against the idea of nations being saved by God are missing out, I think. They don't realize that God is restoring Israel as a nation, after all. Though Israel isn't Christian yet, God may be preparing them for final judgment before He saves them. Furthermore, it is to our benefit to believe that nations can be saved. By the example of Israel we know that when we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ and live in righteousness, God will hear our prayers and deliver our nation. If we don't know this, we won't testify to the righteousness our nation needs to be saved! Even if the majority in our nation don't listen, it is still necessary to preach the truth of Christian righteousness, because God will use this testimony to hold those who hear accountable. He can then judge and remove the wicked to make a better place for those who are righteous. The way I see it Randy is that Jesus only talked about one flock which is made up of both Jew and gentile. John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
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Post by randy on Jun 17, 2021 0:53:19 GMT
Thank you for sharing your interesting post Randy. It is a good thing to pray for salvation for our fellow countryman. It also goes without saying that sharing the Gospel should be a priority. However, I do not see in Scripture where nations will be saved as in saved unto Salvation from sin. The history of the the Old Testament is an example of national failure in faithfulness to God. The Gospel is preached as a one on one Salvation, not national salvation. Although there have been nations that had some evidence of what we might call Christian government for a short time which sadly did not last long. The corruption of politics does not allow for Christian standards as a reality because, to the world it shows weakness not strength. Jesus came to save sinners not nations. This is also evident in the final judgment where people are judged for their personal sins not what nation they lived in. Yes, Christian Salvation is not to be confused with National Salvation. National Salvation has to do with things like being saved from enemies, natural disasters, and plagues--a different kind of "salvation" entirely! When a nation comes under covenant with God, as Israel did, then God promises them national protection, or national "salvation," if you will. They will be protected from enemies, natural disasters, and plagues if they do their part and keep God's laws. I don't believe this is any different in nations today. If they covenant together to follow the one true God and His Christ as their Constitution and as their Law, God will honor His Word and protect those nations. But if they turn away from God and from His Law, then God will not protect them, and will, in fact, turn them over to the very curses they wish to avoid. Different kind of National Salvation I speak of. Thanks for forcing me to clarify!
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Post by randy on Jun 17, 2021 0:56:16 GMT
The way I see it Randy is that Jesus only talked about one flock which is made up of both Jew and gentile. John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. Yes, I do believe Christ has only one Body--his own Body! We are grafted in to him, spiritually, and thus become members of Christ, members of one Body. But I also believe that God creates nations. And they are still playing a significant role in the world. It's obviously part of God's plan in the present age. Whether it plays a role in the age to come depends on your view of the Millennium. No problem!
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Post by foxjj on Jun 17, 2021 3:09:38 GMT
Thank you for sharing your interesting post Randy. It is a good thing to pray for salvation for our fellow countryman. It also goes without saying that sharing the Gospel should be a priority. However, I do not see in Scripture where nations will be saved as in saved unto Salvation from sin. The history of the the Old Testament is an example of national failure in faithfulness to God. The Gospel is preached as a one on one Salvation, not national salvation. Although there have been nations that had some evidence of what we might call Christian government for a short time which sadly did not last long. The corruption of politics does not allow for Christian standards as a reality because, to the world it shows weakness not strength. Jesus came to save sinners not nations. This is also evident in the final judgment where people are judged for their personal sins not what nation they lived in. Yes, Christian Salvation is not to be confused with National Salvation. National Salvation has to do with things like being saved from enemies, natural disasters, and plagues--a different kind of "salvation" entirely! When a nation comes under covenant with God, as Israel did, then God promises them national protection, or national "salvation," if you will. They will be protected from enemies, natural disasters, and plagues if they do their part and keep God's laws. I don't believe this is any different in nations today. If they covenant together to follow the one true God and His Christ as their Constitution and as their Law, God will honor His Word and protect those nations. But if they turn away from God and from His Law, then God will not protect them, and will, in fact, turn them over to the very curses they wish to avoid. Different kind of National Salvation I speak of. Thanks for forcing me to clarify! OK then, can you name a nation that has covenant together to follow the One True God?
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Post by randy on Jun 17, 2021 6:26:11 GMT
Many nations fit the definition of "Christian Nation." Consult an encyclopedia. A nation with a large majority of Christians can be considered a "Christian Nation." A nation that opts for a Christian Constitution or who elects a Christian Government can be considered a "Christian Nation." When a king rules as a Christian ruler, and the people accept his rule as such, the nation can be considered to be a "Christian nation." Don't take my word for it. Consult an encyclopedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_stateA Christian state is a country that recognizes a form of Christianity as its official religion and often has a state church (also called an established church),[1] which is a Christian denomination that supports the government and is supported by the government.[2]
Historically, the nations of Armenia,[3] Abyssinia,[4] Georgia,[5] as well as the Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire declared themselves as Christian states.[6][7]
Today, several nations officially identify themselves as Christian states or have state churches. These countries include Argentina,[8] Armenia, Costa Rica,[9] Denmark (incl. Greenland),[10] Dominican Republic,[11] El Salvador,[12][13] England,[14] Ethiopia, Faroe Islands,[15] Georgia,[16] Greece,[17] Hungary,[18] Iceland,[19] Liechtenstein,[20] Malta,[21] Monaco,[22] Norway,[23] Samoa,[24] Tonga,[25] Tuvalu,[26] Vatican City,[27] and Zambia.[28] A Christian state stands in contrast to a secular state,[29] an atheist state,[30] or another religious state, such as a Jewish state,[31] or an Islamic state.[32]
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Post by foxjj on Jun 17, 2021 7:12:17 GMT
It is one thing to claim to be a Christian nation and another to live in covenant with the One Through God. There is no country or national that can live up to the standards of The Bible in its entirety, making that country a covenant nation. Historically the countries that are recognized as Christian, are Christian in name only, and not Biblically Christian. We have to remember that the world’s definition of Christian is not the Biblical definition. Before I became a born again Christian, I believed that I came from a Christian country and had settled in a Christian country. Then, after I came to Christ and looked at the world through spiritual eyes, realized that the politics of the world was corrupt and at odds with God’s Truth. I soon learned that just because a person claimed to be Christian did not mean that they were a Biblical Christian. In other words talk is cheap, and people will claim to be Christian for convince. Just take a look at the history of the countries on the list of your post and then ask yourself if they stack up to God’s standards.
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Post by randy on Jun 18, 2021 1:39:35 GMT
It is one thing to claim to be a Christian nation and another to live in covenant with the One Through God. There is no country or national that can live up to the standards of The Bible in its entirety, making that country a covenant nation. Historically the countries that are recognized as Christian, are Christian in name only, and not Biblically Christian. We have to remember that the world’s definition of Christian is not the Biblical definition. Before I became a born again Christian, I believed that I came from a Christian country and had settled in a Christian country. Then, after I came to Christ and looked at the world through spiritual eyes, realized that the politics of the world was corrupt and at odds with God’s Truth. I soon learned that just because a person claimed to be Christian did not mean that they were a Biblical Christian. In other words talk is cheap, and people will claim to be Christian for convince. Just take a look at the history of the countries on the list of your post and then ask yourself if they stack up to God’s standards. God makes covenants with imperfect people, whether individually or collectively, as a nation. We know that because God did it with Israel. God made a covenant not just with the most faithful in the nation, but with the whole nation. It isn't our job to judge the heart of every person in a Christian country. We know they won't all be faithful. But when they all swear to uphold Christian Law, God holds them accountable to this covenant at face value. There is need to be reborn if we want to obtain eternal life. But if people have not yet made that decision, we should still ask them to seek divine protection and favor for our nation, by observing Christian laws. People aren't saved by their perfection, and nations aren't blessed only by their reborn status. God pours out His blessings on the just and on the unjust. Only God knows what He requires of a nation in order to bless it. I feel confident that all people, reborn or not, can observe God's laws. They just cannot obtain eternal life and a complete character change without becoming born again. God requires a complete character change in order to give them eternal life. They must accept Christ in place of their own independent, carnal life. They must accept Christ's spiritual life. I think you're right to be concerned about eternal life. But if people are not interested in that, we should at least ask them to live by Christian laws of morality and justice. I do think that will bring a measure of blessing to our nation and to them from God.
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Post by foxjj on Jun 18, 2021 7:32:33 GMT
That is indeed an interesting perspective that you have Randy. Allow me to make further comments. First, keep in mind that to be Christian is to follow Christ therefore, a Christian nation should follow Christ in its governance.
You wrote ”It isn't our job to judge the heart of every person in a Christian country. We know they won't all be faithful. But when they all swear to uphold Christian Law, God holds them accountable to this covenant at face value.” I do not know of any nation where all the people have sworn to uphold Christian law. Consequently, I do not know how any country can call itself a Christian country and have a covenant relationship with God.
You also wrote “I think you're right to be concerned about eternal life. But if people are not interested in that, we should at least ask them to live by Christian laws of morality and justice. I do think that will bring a measure of blessing to our nation and to them from God.” I do not know how we can ask people in a democracy to live by Christian laws. Our own two countries are a prime example, look at how our countries are divided over abortion and the definition of marriage. Then there is God’s law that commands the love of our neighbor. Race riots only go to show that this requirement of God is sadly lacking. Up here we have the shame of the abuse of native children in religious schools.
Sadly, when we look at our world there is no evidence of any country receiving covenant blessings because they are a truly Christian country. God’s blessings are given to those who are in covenant relationship with God through Jesus and His Redemption obtained at Calvary.
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Post by randy on Jun 18, 2021 15:18:43 GMT
I agree, Canada and the US are modern countries that exist at what I believe is the end of the age. The Roman Empire was Christianized and this Christian culture spread out across the whole world. (Remember Jesus said: "43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.") But just as with the nation Israel, Christian nations have gone the way of the world--they have apostacized.
Modern democratic republics are something less than fully Christian, I believe. They are a hybridized version of Christian countries, having compromised--perhaps by necessity--with Deists and non-Christians. Only when the vast majority of a country are Christians can Christian government be imposed. Otherwise, there is going to be some form of compromise with non-Christians in order to maintain peace and order.
Our countries were in fact Christian countries, even though they tolerated non-Christian beliefs. But they tried to require Christian behaviors as a universal standard of behavior. They did not, for example, allow homosexuality, even though a very small minority were likely homosexuals or believed in homosexuality. The vast majority of Christians had every right to determine for their own country what values the country, as a whole, should live by.
But we live in times of great Christian apostasy, and Christian behaviors are not being required anymore, nor is there even a genuine Christian majority. Even though a majority may perhaps claim to be "Christian," the genuine behavior of Christianity is no longer being used to define what a "Christian" is.
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Post by foxjj on Jun 18, 2021 15:35:38 GMT
Agreed Randy. Many countries use Christian standards without living according to The Gospel standards therefore, there is no country or nation in covenant with God, only some of their people who are born again believers.
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Post by randy on Jun 18, 2021 18:54:15 GMT
This subject is controversial, but I'd like to share my opinion that God saves nations, as well as individuals. These two concepts are, however, different in their substance. Individual Salvation is a matter of being spiritually reborn, and completely changed on the inside into a new creature so that God can be properly put 1st in everything. But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastructure of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed by the interrelationship of many unique talents. God wishes to save both individuals and nations in this way. National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime, such as deliverance from an enemy. It is the preservation of the entire national structure against the threat of some outside force wishing to destroy it. The OT Scriptures were focused many times on the preservation of the nation Israel, because God promised Abraham natural descendants would form into a nation and an eternal testimony to His faithfulness. It was a reward for the righteousness of Abraham in his response to God's word. I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve. We know, from the OT stories, that Israel succeeded as a nation when they were righteous, but fell as a nation when they turned against God's word and rebelled against it. Though there are many prophecies in the Scriptures that speak of many nations bringing glory to the Lord, and causing His glory to be global, not much is mentioned specifically of "Christian nations." And so, some get the idea that since Israel seemed to have passed away, God doesn't save nations anymore. But the reality is, God didn't mention "Christian nations" specifically because they had not yet developed in the time of the writing of the NT Scriptures. Historically, God fulfilled the 1st stage in His promises to Abraham by 1st gathering Israel as a nation, and then gathering Christian nations. God had also promised Abraham a family of faith among nations. The last stage in fulfilling these promises God will send Christ back to judge the world, so that nations can no longer be oppressed and coerced to fall from their Christian faith. When Christ returns, both Israel and many nations will, I believe, become permanent Christian nations. Just thought I would share this for your interest. Those who have turned against the idea of nations being saved by God are missing out, I think. They don't realize that God is restoring Israel as a nation, after all. Though Israel isn't Christian yet, God may be preparing them for final judgment before He saves them. Furthermore, it is to our benefit to believe that nations can be saved. By the example of Israel we know that when we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ and live in righteousness, God will hear our prayers and deliver our nation. If we don't know this, we won't testify to the righteousness our nation needs to be saved! Even if the majority in our nation don't listen, it is still necessary to preach the truth of Christian righteousness, because God will use this testimony to hold those who hear accountable. He can then judge and remove the wicked to make a better place for those who are righteous. The way I see it Randy is that Jesus only talked about one flock which is made up of both Jew and gentile. John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. Yea, it's really your decision how you choose to view it. I do believe that in one sense we are all, as genuine Christians, part of one Body, the Body of Christ. But in another sense, I see God operating with entire nations, regardless of the fact many of them are not true Christians. Until they choose to become Christian or not, they are still held accountable to His laws of righteousness. And so, I feel it's important to proclaim not just Salvation but a Kingdom. It is God's Kingdom in our midst that holds all people accountable, whether they are Christian or not. They will be judged both by their response to Christ and by their response to His laws. Someone sent these quotes to me. I thought I would add them, for consideration as to how God treats entire nations. And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. 21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. 22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them. Isaiah 19:20-22 (KJV) So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. 6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3:5-10 (KJV)
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