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Post by randy on Nov 28, 2020 0:24:47 GMT
Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.
He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
This passage has been the one fly in the ointment for my understanding of an integrated understanding of the Olivet Discourse. I don't even know if it was part of the Olivet Discourse, or a reiteration of the same. However, I believe it can be integrated directly into the synoptic versions of the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, without inconsistency.
My own view of this Discourse is that although Jesus was asked about his 2nd Coming, and about his Kingdom, the emphasis was largely on that generation, and on the Jewish People. It was still the OT era, and Israel alone were God's Chosen People. And so, acting as a prophet like Jeremiah, Jesus predicted the fall of Jerusalem, due to the fallen spiritual condition of the Jewish People. This would take place sooner, rather than later, just as Jeremiah had also predicted in his own time about the Babylonian Judgment.
The Olivet Discourse is in itself a reiteration of Daniel's prophecy of the 70th Week, in which Messiah would be cut off for the sins of the people, Jerusalem would fall, and it would come about through an Abomination of Desolation. Obviously, I feel the AoD was the Roman Army that, when it initially came, portended the imminent fall of Jerusalem, and a great exile, of great tribulation, to come. This Great Tribulation of the Jewish People would last throughout the present age until the Kingdom finally comes. In the meantime, Jesus' disciples would suffer the world in this fallen condition, just as the prophets suffered in their own time. It was a call for endurance to the saints.
But Luke 17 above throws in a quandary those who would make the Olivet Discourse a futuristic prophecy, rather than a present one. Jesus indicated that a future Kingdom was not the important thing to grasp at that time, but rather, understanding what can't be seen. People thought that by keeping the Law externally they would be safe from God's judgments. But in reality, Jesus said he was in their midst, and they were not recognizing him.
This was the important thing, to recognize spiritual realities in their midst that called them to true righteousness, rather than to legal observances without true faith. Legal observances had become a coverup for immoral and unjust practices. In the end, the Jews kept their religious observance and crucified the Son of God!
Finally, Jesus depicted how the Jewish People, and eventually other nations, would respond negatively to the Kingdom of God. Christ would be rejected, and the world would persist in their lawlessness, covering up their ungodly ways with acts that only appear good.
Jesus compared how the Jews were failing to receive him in his time with how it will be throughout this age until the Kingdom comes. There would be judgments from God against those who are inwardly false and outwardly pretend to be righteous. In reality, it would be like Sodom and Gomorrah, and like the Flood of Noah--nations would come under judgment, with only a few choosing to live in true righteousness.
Jesus specifically applied this to his own generation, showing that they also would go through a kind of Flood of Noah, and experience destruction like Sodom and Gomorrah. When the Romans came, masses of Jews were put to death, and relatively few survived. The Christians paid heed to Jesus and escaped to Pella.
It helped me to understand that Jesus was not saying this destruction of Jerusalem would happen at the 2nd Coming. Rather, Jesus was characterizing the *entire age* as subject to divine judgment, with few escaping in those times. The 70 AD judgment of Jerusalem was simply an early example of this.
Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
This took place in 70 AD. But it is the condition of the world in every generation, when society collapses into lawlessness. The Kingdom of God is not seen, even when Christianity is in their midst. It was the same in the day Jesus was among the Jews as it will be at the end of the age when he comes again to judge the whole world. The world will have failed to see the Kingdom of God in their midst, just as Israel had failed to see their Messiah in their own midst! And judgment would come unexpectedly.
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Post by mfox on Nov 28, 2020 18:09:23 GMT
Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.
He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
This passage has been the one fly in the ointment for my understanding of an integrated understanding of the Olivet Discourse. I don't even know if it was part of the Olivet Discourse, or a reiteration of the same. However, I believe it can be integrated directly into the synoptic versions of the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, without inconsistency.
My own view of this Discourse is that although Jesus was asked about his 2nd Coming, and about his Kingdom, the emphasis was largely on that generation, and on the Jewish People. It was still the OT era, and Israel alone were God's Chosen People. And so, acting as a prophet like Jeremiah, Jesus predicted the fall of Jerusalem, due to the fallen spiritual condition of the Jewish People. This would take place sooner, rather than later, just as Jeremiah had also predicted in his own time about the Babylonian Judgment.
The Olivet Discourse is in itself a reiteration of Daniel's prophecy of the 70th Week, in which Messiah would be cut off for the sins of the people, Jerusalem would fall, and it would come about through an Abomination of Desolation. Obviously, I feel the AoD was the Roman Army that, when it initially came, portended the imminent fall of Jerusalem, and a great exile, of great tribulation, to come. This Great Tribulation of the Jewish People would last throughout the present age until the Kingdom finally comes. In the meantime, Jesus' disciples would suffer the world in this fallen condition, just as the prophets suffered in their own time. It was a call for endurance to the saints.
But Luke 17 above throws in a quandary those who would make the Olivet Discourse a futuristic prophecy, rather than a present one. Jesus indicated that a future Kingdom was not the important thing to grasp at that time, but rather, understanding what can't be seen. People thought that by keeping the Law externally they would be safe from God's judgments. But in reality, Jesus said he was in their midst, and they were not recognizing him.
This was the important thing, to recognize spiritual realities in their midst that called them to true righteousness, rather than to legal observances without true faith. Legal observances had become a coverup for immoral and unjust practices. In the end, the Jews kept their religious observance and crucified the Son of God!
Finally, Jesus depicted how the Jewish People, and eventually other nations, would respond negatively to the Kingdom of God. Christ would be rejected, and the world would persist in their lawlessness, covering up their ungodly ways with acts that only appear good.
Jesus compared how the Jews were failing to receive him in his time with how it will be throughout this age until the Kingdom comes. There would be judgments from God against those who are inwardly false and outwardly pretend to be righteous. In reality, it would be like Sodom and Gomorrah, and like the Flood of Noah--nations would come under judgment, with only a few choosing to live in true righteousness.
Jesus specifically applied this to his own generation, showing that they also would go through a kind of Flood of Noah, and experience destruction like Sodom and Gomorrah. When the Romans came, masses of Jews were put to death, and relatively few survived. The Christians paid heed to Jesus and escaped to Pella.
It helped me to understand that Jesus was not saying this destruction of Jerusalem would happen at the 2nd Coming. Rather, Jesus was characterizing the *entire age* as subject to divine judgment, with few escaping in those times. The 70 AD judgment of Jerusalem was simply an early example of this.
Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
This took place in 70 AD. But it is the condition of the world in every generation, when society collapses into lawlessness. The Kingdom of God is not seen, even when Christianity is in their midst. It was the same in the day Jesus was among the Jews as it will be at the end of the age when he comes again to judge the whole world. The world will have failed to see the Kingdom of God in their midst, just as Israel had failed to see their Messiah in their own midst! And judgment would come unexpectedly. I agree with a lot of what you say here but it wasn’t the second coming that Jesus was talking about but His coming in judgement. The deciples asked a question of what they thought would happen but Jesus corrected them the kingdom they thought would happen wasn’t what the true kingdom was it was spiritual not physical remember Jesus said that the kingdom of God was in their midst.
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Post by randy on Nov 28, 2020 18:27:11 GMT
Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.
He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
This passage has been the one fly in the ointment for my understanding of an integrated understanding of the Olivet Discourse. I don't even know if it was part of the Olivet Discourse, or a reiteration of the same. However, I believe it can be integrated directly into the synoptic versions of the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, without inconsistency.
My own view of this Discourse is that although Jesus was asked about his 2nd Coming, and about his Kingdom, the emphasis was largely on that generation, and on the Jewish People. It was still the OT era, and Israel alone were God's Chosen People. And so, acting as a prophet like Jeremiah, Jesus predicted the fall of Jerusalem, due to the fallen spiritual condition of the Jewish People. This would take place sooner, rather than later, just as Jeremiah had also predicted in his own time about the Babylonian Judgment.
The Olivet Discourse is in itself a reiteration of Daniel's prophecy of the 70th Week, in which Messiah would be cut off for the sins of the people, Jerusalem would fall, and it would come about through an Abomination of Desolation. Obviously, I feel the AoD was the Roman Army that, when it initially came, portended the imminent fall of Jerusalem, and a great exile, of great tribulation, to come. This Great Tribulation of the Jewish People would last throughout the present age until the Kingdom finally comes. In the meantime, Jesus' disciples would suffer the world in this fallen condition, just as the prophets suffered in their own time. It was a call for endurance to the saints.
But Luke 17 above throws in a quandary those who would make the Olivet Discourse a futuristic prophecy, rather than a present one. Jesus indicated that a future Kingdom was not the important thing to grasp at that time, but rather, understanding what can't be seen. People thought that by keeping the Law externally they would be safe from God's judgments. But in reality, Jesus said he was in their midst, and they were not recognizing him.
This was the important thing, to recognize spiritual realities in their midst that called them to true righteousness, rather than to legal observances without true faith. Legal observances had become a coverup for immoral and unjust practices. In the end, the Jews kept their religious observance and crucified the Son of God!
Finally, Jesus depicted how the Jewish People, and eventually other nations, would respond negatively to the Kingdom of God. Christ would be rejected, and the world would persist in their lawlessness, covering up their ungodly ways with acts that only appear good.
Jesus compared how the Jews were failing to receive him in his time with how it will be throughout this age until the Kingdom comes. There would be judgments from God against those who are inwardly false and outwardly pretend to be righteous. In reality, it would be like Sodom and Gomorrah, and like the Flood of Noah--nations would come under judgment, with only a few choosing to live in true righteousness.
Jesus specifically applied this to his own generation, showing that they also would go through a kind of Flood of Noah, and experience destruction like Sodom and Gomorrah. When the Romans came, masses of Jews were put to death, and relatively few survived. The Christians paid heed to Jesus and escaped to Pella.
It helped me to understand that Jesus was not saying this destruction of Jerusalem would happen at the 2nd Coming. Rather, Jesus was characterizing the *entire age* as subject to divine judgment, with few escaping in those times. The 70 AD judgment of Jerusalem was simply an early example of this.
Luke 17.30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
This took place in 70 AD. But it is the condition of the world in every generation, when society collapses into lawlessness. The Kingdom of God is not seen, even when Christianity is in their midst. It was the same in the day Jesus was among the Jews as it will be at the end of the age when he comes again to judge the whole world. The world will have failed to see the Kingdom of God in their midst, just as Israel had failed to see their Messiah in their own midst! And judgment would come unexpectedly. I agree with a lot of what you say here but it wasn’t the second coming that Jesus was talking about but His coming in judgement. The deciples asked a question of what they thought would happen but Jesus corrected them the kingdom they thought would happen wasn’t what the true kingdom was it was spiritual not physical remember Jesus said that the kingdom of God was in their midst. I see the reference to Jesus' Coming in Luke 17 as a conflation of all of his comings in judgment in history, whether the 70 AD judgment of Israel, the WW2 judgment of Nazi Germany, or the eternal judgment poured out at the 2nd Coming. But it has to include, I think, the 2nd Coming, because that is where men who die and are judged in history are eternally sentenced! That is where Final Judgment takes place.
If we look at the 7 churches of Revelation, Jesus is depicted as "coming" in their own time, to inflict judgment upon their enemies, or to bless his people for their obedience. His "Coming" is not just at the end of the age, but actually began with his 1st Coming.
And so Jesus is depicting the character of his Coming, as something mysterious and invisible. His mysterious presence was not seen just in his physical appearance in Israel, but more, by revelation, just as Peter saw when identifying him as the Son of God.
All through this age, beginning with Israel, men fail to see the Kingdom of God in their midst, and come under judgment from God in their own history. And this leads them to final judgment in Jesus' eschatological Coming.
Luke 17 was just a characterization of Jesus' 2nd Coming as something already present and unknown by the ungodly world. But it will lead up to final judgment at an eschatological event. But thanks for your thoughts.
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Post by mfox on Nov 28, 2020 18:38:59 GMT
I agree with a lot of what you say here but it wasn’t the second coming that Jesus was talking about but His coming in judgement. The deciples asked a question of what they thought would happen but Jesus corrected them the kingdom they thought would happen wasn’t what the true kingdom was it was spiritual not physical remember Jesus said that the kingdom of God was in their midst. I see the reference to Jesus' Coming in Luke 17 as a conflation of all of his comings in judgment in history, whether the 70 AD judgment of Israel, the WW2 judgment of Nazi Germany, or the eternal judgment poured out at the 2nd Coming. But it has to include, I think, the 2nd Coming, because that is where men who die and are judged in history are eternally sentenced! That is where Final Judgment takes place.
If we look at the 7 churches of Revelation, Jesus is depicted as "coming" in their own time, to inflict judgment upon their enemies, or to bless his people for their obedience. His "Coming" is not just at the end of the age, but actually began with his 1st Coming.
And so Jesus is depicting the character of his Coming, as something mysterious and invisible. His mysterious presence was not seen just in his physical appearance in Israel, but more, by revelation, just as Peter saw when identifying him as the Son of God.
All through this age, beginning with Israel, men fail to see the Kingdom of God in their midst, and come under judgment from God in their own history. And this leads them to final judgment in Jesus' eschatological Coming.
Luke 17 was just a characterization of Jesus' 2nd Coming as something already present and unknown by the ungodly world. But it will lead up to final judgment at an eschatological event. But thanks for your thoughts.Your welcome Randy but what you just described is the coming in revelation 19 But back to the Olivit discourse remember that He did come within that generation just like He said He would
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Post by randy on Nov 30, 2020 0:22:19 GMT
I see the reference to Jesus' Coming in Luke 17 as a conflation of all of his comings in judgment in history, whether the 70 AD judgment of Israel, the WW2 judgment of Nazi Germany, or the eternal judgment poured out at the 2nd Coming. But it has to include, I think, the 2nd Coming, because that is where men who die and are judged in history are eternally sentenced! That is where Final Judgment takes place.
If we look at the 7 churches of Revelation, Jesus is depicted as "coming" in their own time, to inflict judgment upon their enemies, or to bless his people for their obedience. His "Coming" is not just at the end of the age, but actually began with his 1st Coming.
And so Jesus is depicting the character of his Coming, as something mysterious and invisible. His mysterious presence was not seen just in his physical appearance in Israel, but more, by revelation, just as Peter saw when identifying him as the Son of God.
All through this age, beginning with Israel, men fail to see the Kingdom of God in their midst, and come under judgment from God in their own history. And this leads them to final judgment in Jesus' eschatological Coming.
Luke 17 was just a characterization of Jesus' 2nd Coming as something already present and unknown by the ungodly world. But it will lead up to final judgment at an eschatological event. But thanks for your thoughts. Your welcome Randy but what you just described is the coming in revelation 19 But back to the Olivit discourse remember that He did come within that generation just like He said He would
I respectfully disagree. Very much respect you, but have a somewhat different position. I do think Jesus is sort of conflating the 2nd Coming of Rev 19 with his coming in judgment in 70 AD. This was, I think, intentional, because historical judgments lead to eternal judgments.
I just cannot say that Jesus' coming in 70 AD fulfilled the eschatological event known as the "2nd Coming." And so, I believe Jesus was in a sense comparing the 2 events, since both were judgments from heaven, and both lead to eternal judgment.
We are not to simply wait for eternal judgment to take place, because it is what we do now that prepares us for that event. The Jews in Jesus' day who did not show respect for this ignored Jesus and suffered an historical judgment in 70 AD, leading to their eternal judgment. This was what Jesus was warning them about, I believe.
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Post by mfox on Nov 30, 2020 2:26:00 GMT
Your welcome Randy but what you just described is the coming in revelation 19 But back to the Olivit discourse remember that He did come within that generation just like He said He would
I respectfully disagree. Very much respect you, but have a somewhat different position. I do think Jesus is sort of conflating the 2nd Coming of Rev 19 with his coming in judgment in 70 AD. This was, I think, intentional, because historical judgments lead to eternal judgments.
I just cannot say that Jesus' coming in 70 AD fulfilled the eschatological event known as the "2nd Coming." And so, I believe Jesus was in a sense comparing the 2 events, since both were judgments from heaven, and both lead to eternal judgment.
We are not to simply wait for eternal judgment to take place, because it is what we do now that prepares us for that event. The Jews in Jesus' day who did not show respect for this ignored Jesus and suffered an historical judgment in 70 AD, leading to their eternal judgment. This was what Jesus was warning them about, I believe.
The feeling is mutual Randy To clarify I don’t think that Jesus coming in 70AD fulfilled the 2nd coming either. Let me show you what I’m saying The coming in revelation 19 isn’t a one time event but an image of Jesus repeatley defeating Him enemies with the sword of His mouth His word. For example King David predicted the events in revelation 19 and the deciples referenced it in the verses below Acts 4:23-27 23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: “‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 26 The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed one. 27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed King David used the exact same description of Revelation 19 in verse 26 above and the deciples knew this and it happened in their day but Jesus had the final victory He was still on the throne but Herod, Pontiuus Pilate and the rest of the people who conspired against Jesus are long dead and defeated.
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Post by randy on Dec 1, 2020 21:58:37 GMT
I respectfully disagree. Very much respect you, but have a somewhat different position. I do think Jesus is sort of conflating the 2nd Coming of Rev 19 with his coming in judgment in 70 AD. This was, I think, intentional, because historical judgments lead to eternal judgments.
I just cannot say that Jesus' coming in 70 AD fulfilled the eschatological event known as the "2nd Coming." And so, I believe Jesus was in a sense comparing the 2 events, since both were judgments from heaven, and both lead to eternal judgment.
We are not to simply wait for eternal judgment to take place, because it is what we do now that prepares us for that event. The Jews in Jesus' day who did not show respect for this ignored Jesus and suffered an historical judgment in 70 AD, leading to their eternal judgment. This was what Jesus was warning them about, I believe.
The feeling is mutual Randy To clarify I don’t think that Jesus coming in 70AD fulfilled the 2nd coming either. Let me show you what I’m saying The coming in revelation 19 isn’t a one time event but an image of Jesus repeatley defeating Him enemies with the sword of His mouth His word. For example King David predicted the events in revelation 19 and the deciples referenced it in the verses below Acts 4:23-27 23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: “‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 26 The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed one. 27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed King David used the exact same description of Revelation 19 in verse 26 above and the deciples knew this and it happened in their day but Jesus had the final victory He was still on the throne but Herod, Pontiuus Pilate and the rest of the people who conspired against Jesus are long dead and defeated. Yea, we agree on that much, for sure! Thanks.
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Post by Naama on Jan 23, 2021 0:18:03 GMT
Why would the olivet discourse or luke 17 be attached to daniels 70th week?
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Post by mfox on Jan 23, 2021 18:45:51 GMT
Why would the olivet discourse or luke 17 be attached to daniels 70th week? I agree they wouldn’t be attached
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Post by randy on Jan 24, 2021 5:19:28 GMT
Why would the olivet discourse or luke 17 be attached to daniels 70th week? There are a few views on this, and I can only give you mine. Over the course of decades I've held to some of the major views myself. I tend to change my views when over time something doesn't seem consistent.
I like to run to the Church Fathers in the Early Church to see how they believed. They were noble Christians, and my thought is that if God couldn't speak to them when the Scriptures were so fresh in history, how could He speak to us? Some argue that prophetic understanding is reserved by God for the endtimes, but I believe the endtimes actually started with the 1st Coming of Jesus.
So what did the Church Fathers have to say about this? I'm not going to look them all up right now, but I believe the majority of them viewed the 1st Coming of Jesus as the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week (ch. 9). There, prophecy comes to a head when sin rises to its worst level in Israel, and all sin is atoned for. And though judgment eventually comes to the temple of God in Jerusalem, in 70 AD, hope is established through the coming of Messiah after 69 Weeks of years.
Jesus did come 483 years after a decree was issued, or re-issued by King Artaxerxes of Persia. That is, after 69 Weeks of years, Jesus began his ministry, and was cut off in the middle of the 70th Week, after 3.5 years of ministry. That's what Dan 9.26 says, that Messiah would be cut off in the midst of the 70th Week. Following that, the Abomination of Desolation would destroy the city of Jerusalem and the temple.
This is how the Church Fathers interpreted it--not as the 2nd Coming, but rather, as the 1st Coming of Christ, to be followed by the AoD in 70 AD. That's when the Roman Army arrived at Jerusalem and destroyed it. They actually came twice, the 1st time in 66 AD to give the believers an opportunity to escape when that Army withdrew prematurely.
Luke 17 appears to be part of the Olivet Discourse, and refers to this ministry of Messiah in which he was "cut off," presaging the judgment of Jerusalem by the Roman AoD. In fact, in Luke 21 Jesus makes it very clear that this AoD is the Roman Army standing around the holy city, or "standing in the holy place."
I don't see how we can fail to see Luke 17 and 21 as part of the 70th Week of Daniel 9? They are talking about the same things. And Jesus, in fact, referenced Daniel's prophecy in that very Discourse. See Mat 24.15.
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Post by Naama on Jan 27, 2021 17:39:30 GMT
I would agree with you in a typological sense but not as a direct prophesy. What i mean is christ came and expanded Israel out to the world which filllfulled the promise to the exiles that once they return and become a kingdom once again it will never be destroyed.
The new testament writers connected many things from the old testament with Jesus but somehow they forgot to include the 70th week of Daniel? This would be the daddy of prophesies.
They didn't because Daniel is about the vil despit antiochus epiphanies.
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Post by randy on Jan 28, 2021 2:05:53 GMT
I would agree with you in a typological sense but not as a direct prophesy. What i mean is christ came and expanded Israel out to the world which filllfulled the promise to the exiles that once they return and become a kingdom once again it will never be destroyed. The new testament writers connected many things from the old testament with Jesus but somehow they forgot to include the 70th week of Daniel? This would be the daddy of prophesies. They didn't because Daniel is about the vil despit antiochus epiphanies. I don't understand a number of things you're saying here. You're saying Christ came to "expand Israel out into the world?" I believe that Jesus came both to save and to judge. His judgment, however, is patient and longsuffering. Christ waited 40 years before judging Israel. That's when the Roman Army arrived to destroy both the city of Jerusalem and the temple of God.
None of this is typological, and it is exactly what Daniel foretold in ch. 9. Jesus, in fact, referred to this prophecy of Daniel in his Olivet Discourse. That's why he predicted the imminent fall of Jerusalem in his generation. Not only was his generation adulterous and sinful, but Daniel had foretold that they would "cut off" Christ, and suffer the loss of their city and the sanctuary as a result.
This is precisely the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week--the cutting off of Christ, to be followed by the destruction of Jerusalem. The Roman Army was the Abomination of Desolation.
I know that some think Antiochus 4 was the AoD. And in at least one place in Daniel Antiochus 4 *is* an AoD! But since Jesus mentioned this prophecy as in his immediate future, it could not have been Antiochus 4.
Antiochus 4 figures prominently in the book of Daniel, and is referred to in chs. 8, 11, and 12. But he should not be confused with either the Roman Army in ch. 9 or with the Antichrist, the "Little Horn," in ch. 7.
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Post by Naama on Jan 29, 2021 21:59:44 GMT
Then Daniel is a false prophet because the kingdom of Israel was destroyed after the exiles returned.
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Post by randy on Jan 30, 2021 5:43:30 GMT
Then Daniel is a false prophet because the kingdom of Israel was destroyed after the exiles returned. No, Daniel foretold the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel. The final Salvation of Israel is therefore depicted as something taking place far off into the future, well beyond the events of 70 AD. Israel went into exile--she was not completely annihilated. Israel didn't disappear during the Babylonian Captivity either. She was simply in a state of being punished by God for 70 years. This final punishment upon Israel has now lasted 2000 years. Surely, her final national Salvation is near!
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Post by Naama on Jan 31, 2021 18:14:29 GMT
God promised the exiles in babylon that once their time of exile was over their kingdom would be re established and it would never be destroyed again. You admit this kingdom was destroyed in 70 AD and the people of this kingdom were once again exiled but now exile somehow means complete annihilation not lose of a kingdom and exile?
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Post by randy on Feb 2, 2021 5:19:32 GMT
God promised the exiles in babylon that once their time of exile was over their kingdom would be re established and it would never be destroyed again. You admit this kingdom was destroyed in 70 AD and the people of this kingdom were once again exiled but now exile somehow means complete annihilation not lose of a kingdom and exile? No Naama, that's not what I'm saying. Exile is a temporary loss of a homeland. In the case of the Babylonian Captivity, the exile was for 70 years. In the case of the 70 AD exile after the Roman conquest, the exile has been 2000 years and counting. This is why it is called the "Great Tribulation."
As Jesus said in Luke 21, this is a great punishment upon the Jewish people. When it is finished at the Return of Christ, Israel will be rebuilt from the surviving remnant, and a complete nation will be restored, serving as a Christian nation.
The Prophets did not say that Israel would be restored after the Babylonian Captivity, never to be exiled again. They were only promised a restoration, and after that, another, much longer exile.
The promise that Israel would never again be exiled is indeed found in the Prophets. But it is what I call "the Jewish Hope," or the "Messianic Hope." It is the promise of a Messianic Kingdom in which all of the promises God made for Israel will be finally fulfilled. This will take place *after* Christ's Coming and be realized in the Millennium.
Note: I recognize that not all are Millennialists here. But I am indeed Premillennial.
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