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Post by mfox on Nov 11, 2020 2:50:49 GMT
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Post by journeyman on Nov 16, 2020 13:31:23 GMT
Here's something also from Rev.20. It's not exactly related to your OP, but I thought I might share it with you as we agree on how to interpret end time events, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev.20:11
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pet.3:10
To me, these two passages describe the same event, because it's unnecessary for heaven and earth to pass away twice 1000 literal years apart. Anyway, I don't want to detract from your subject, but only wanted to give you something to consider when speaking to others about a literal 1000 years.
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Post by mfox on Nov 16, 2020 17:32:20 GMT
Here's something also from Rev.20. It's not exactly related to your OP, but I thought I might share it with you as we agree on how to interpret end time events, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev.20:11 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pet.3:10 To me, these two passages describe the same event, because it's unnecessary for heaven and earth to pass away twice 1000 literal years apart. Anyway, I don't want to detract from your subject, but only wanted to give you something to consider when speaking to others about a literal 1000 years. Agreed thanks its the same as the verses right before yours 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
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Post by journeyman on Nov 16, 2020 18:34:55 GMT
Here's something also from Rev.20. It's not exactly related to your OP, but I thought I might share it with you as we agree on how to interpret end time events, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev.20:11 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pet.3:10 To me, these two passages describe the same event, because it's unnecessary for heaven and earth to pass away twice 1000 literal years apart. Anyway, I don't want to detract from your subject, but only wanted to give you something to consider when speaking to others about a literal 1000 years. Agreed thanks its the same as the verses right before yours 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. I won't get into an eternal torment discussion, but I will say if the passages I cited are describimg the same event, then the beast and false prophet aren't in the lake of fire 1000 years before the GWT judgement.
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Post by mfox on Nov 16, 2020 19:06:46 GMT
Agreed thanks its the same as the verses right before yours 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. I won't get into an eternal torment discussion, but I will say if the passages I cited are describimg the same event, then the beast and false prophet aren't in the lake of fire 1000 years before the GWT judgement. Why do you think that?
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Post by journeyman on Nov 16, 2020 20:46:10 GMT
I won't get into an eternal torment discussion, but I will say if the passages I cited are describimg the same event, then the beast and false prophet aren't in the lake of fire 1000 years before the GWT judgement. Why do you think that? Because the beast and false prophet face the lof at Christ's return and that's when the heavens and earth are disolved. They aren disolved, or fly away 1000 literal years apart. The translators made it make it sound like the beast "had been" thrown there 1000 years before anyone at the GWT, but that's not possible if the passong of heaven and earth is a one time event. And "had been" was added maybe because that's what the translators believed.
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Post by mfox on Nov 16, 2020 21:19:48 GMT
Because the beast and false prophet face the lof at Christ's return and that's when the heavens and earth are disolved. They aren disolved, or fly away 1000 literal years apart. The translators made it make it sound like the beast "had been" thrown there 1000 years before anyone at the GWT, but that's not possible if the passong of heaven and earth is a one time event. And "had been" was added maybe because that's what the translators believed. I don't see revelation 19 as Jesus' return but Jesus defeating His enemies over time with the sword of His mouth His word. I also see the beast and the false prophet as demonic beings influencing Rome and apostate Israel and their leaders that's why they can be cast into the lake of fire before the GWTJ
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Post by journeyman on Nov 16, 2020 22:32:52 GMT
Because the beast and false prophet face the lof at Christ's return and that's when the heavens and earth are disolved. They aren disolved, or fly away 1000 literal years apart. The translators made it make it sound like the beast "had been" thrown there 1000 years before anyone at the GWT, but that's not possible if the passong of heaven and earth is a one time event. And "had been" was added maybe because that's what the translators believed. I don't see revelation 19 as Jesus' return but Jesus defeating His enemies over time with the sword of His mouth His word. I also see the beast and the false prophet as demonic beings influencing Rome and apostate Israel and their leaders that's why they can be cast into the lake of fire before the GWTJ I see Rev.19 the same way you do, but we differ on the our views concernng the lake of fire. To me, the lake of fire describes the presence of Christ and his effect on the unrepentant, the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence, 2Thes.2:8 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. Psa.97:3 the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire 2Thes.1:7-8 For our God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29 Our God approaches and is not silent; consuming fire goes ahead of him and all around him a storm rages. Psa.50:3
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Post by mfox on Nov 17, 2020 2:19:41 GMT
I don't see revelation 19 as Jesus' return but Jesus defeating His enemies over time with the sword of His mouth His word. I also see the beast and the false prophet as demonic beings influencing Rome and apostate Israel and their leaders that's why they can be cast into the lake of fire before the GWTJ I see Rev.19 the same way you do, but we differ on the our views concernng the lake of fire. To me, the lake of fire describes the presence of Christ and his effect on the unrepentant, the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence, 2Thes.2:8 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. Psa.97:3 the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire 2Thes.1:7-8 For our God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29 Our God approaches and is not silent; consuming fire goes ahead of him and all around him a storm rages. Psa.50:3 I think that the lake of fire is self torment of not being able to dwell with God forever and knowing that you chose that. I also think that this is different than Jesus returning with fire
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Post by journeyman on Nov 17, 2020 11:54:50 GMT
I see Rev.19 the same way you do, but we differ on the our views concernng the lake of fire. To me, the lake of fire describes the presence of Christ and his effect on the unrepentant, the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence, 2Thes.2:8 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. Psa.97:3 the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire 2Thes.1:7-8 For our God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29 Our God approaches and is not silent; consuming fire goes ahead of him and all around him a storm rages. Psa.50:3 I think that the lake of fire is self torment of not being able to dwell with God forever and knowing that you chose that. I also think that this is different than Jesus returning with fire I'm sure there will be sorrow over not realizing how wonderful God is, but I believe the lake of fire is the judgement seat of Christ, the GWT judgement. The original point I was making though is the the heavens and earth won't be disolved, fly away, disappear 2 times. Once when Jesus returns and then again 1000 literal years after.
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Post by mfox on Nov 17, 2020 19:18:25 GMT
I think that the lake of fire is self torment of not being able to dwell with God forever and knowing that you chose that. I also think that this is different than Jesus returning with fire I'm sure there will be sorrow over not realizing how wonderful God is, but I believe the lake of fire is the judgement seat of Christ, the GWT judgement. The original point I was making though is the the heavens and earth won't be disolved, fly away, disappear 2 times. Once when Jesus returns and then again 1000 literal years after. I agree but there could be judgments at different times only once for people and separate times for demons like we see in the verses below Daniel 7:11-12 11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.) This clearly says that the 4th beast was cast into the lake of fire before the other three Where do you get the idea that some think that it happens twice?
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Post by journeyman on Nov 18, 2020 11:37:20 GMT
I'm sure there will be sorrow over not realizing how wonderful God is, but I believe the lake of fire is the judgement seat of Christ, the GWT judgement. The original point I was making though is the the heavens and earth won't be disolved, fly away, disappear 2 times. Once when Jesus returns and then again 1000 literal years after. I agree but there could be judgments at different times only once for people and separate times for demons like we see in the verses below Daniel 7:11-12 11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a very period of time.) This clearly says that the 4th beast was cast into the lake of fire before the other three Where do you get the idea that some think that it happens twice? The 4th beast attempts to kill Christians (Dan.7:21) until the GWT judgement (vs.22). So being destroyed is either an interjection of his final end, or t pertains to how Jesuss defeated this beast at his first advent. People who believe in a literal 1000 years time period before judgement day cannot explain how the heavens and earth pass away at the return of Christ, but then pass away 1000 literal years after at the GWT judgement, but that's what they are saying by believing in a literal "millennium". Ask them. You won't get an answer.
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Post by mfox on Nov 18, 2020 17:28:54 GMT
I agree but there could be judgments at different times only once for people and separate times for demons like we see in the verses below Daniel 7:11-12 11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a very period of time.) This clearly says that the 4th beast was cast into the lake of fire before the other three Where do you get the idea that some think that it happens twice? The 4th beast attempts to kill Christians (Dan.7:21) until the GWT judgement (vs.22). So being destroyed is either an interjection of his final end, or t pertains to how Jesuss defeated this beast at his first advent. People who believe in a literal 1000 years time period before judgement day cannot explain how the heavens and earth pass away at the return of Christ, but then pass away 1000 literal years after at the GWT judgement, but that's what they are saying by believing in a literal "millennium". Ask them. You won't get an answer. Yes I agree there is no literal 1000 years. About the fourth beast I see him as way in the past as Antiochus Epiphanies
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Post by journeyman on Nov 18, 2020 21:37:36 GMT
The 4th beast attempts to kill Christians (Dan.7:21) until the GWT judgement (vs.22). So being destroyed is either an interjection of his final end, or t pertains to how Jesuss defeated this beast at his first advent. People who believe in a literal 1000 years time period before judgement day cannot explain how the heavens and earth pass away at the return of Christ, but then pass away 1000 literal years after at the GWT judgement, but that's what they are saying by believing in a literal "millennium". Ask them. You won't get an answer. Yes I agree there is no literal 1000 years. About the fourth beast I see him as way in the past as Antiochus Epiphanies Well, cite the passages from Peter and Revelation to anyone who does believe they are literally 1000 years apart and you wont get an answer. As far as the identity of the beast, it doesn't matter to me, because basically all the beasts want and do the same thing, only on a grander scale
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Post by mfox on Nov 19, 2020 1:24:45 GMT
Yes I agree there is no literal 1000 years. About the fourth beast I see him as way in the past as Antiochus Epiphanies Well, cite the passages from Peter and Revelation to anyone who does believe they are literally 1000 years apart and you wont get an answer. As far as the identity of the beast, it doesn't matter to me, because basically all the beasts want and do the same thing, only on a grander scale Yes it doesn't matter to us today but it did matter to the people Daniel and John wrote to
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