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Post by journeyman on Aug 25, 2020 23:57:47 GMT
It does. God punishing himself in plave of sinners makes no sense. Okay if so then why did Jesus die? How did He die for us? What is the purpose of the last supper? Matthew 26:26-29 26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
How would His blood be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins if He’s not in our place?
Jesus laid his life down freely for us, but this doesnt mean he condoned his murder. The murder of Jesus showed man's hatred for God. Partaking of the bread and wine is symbolized abiding in Christ, He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. Jn.6:56
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Post by journeyman on Aug 26, 2020 0:32:23 GMT
It does. God punishing himself in plave of sinners makes no sense. Okay if so then why did Jesus die? How did He die for us? What is the purpose of the last supper? Matthew 26:26-29 26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
How would His blood be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins if He’s not in our place?
Jesus laid his life down freely for us, but this doesnt mean he condoned his murder. The murder of Jesus showed man's hatred for God. Partaking of the bread and wine is symbolic of abiding in Christ, living for him, He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. Jn.6:56 To answer your last question, our Lord warned people about coming judgement and condemnation and some of the people he warned didnt lke what he said and killed him. He poured his life out for our welfare, so that we might know God, but didn't die in place of anyone. Read Heb.13, where it talks about the flesh of the OT sacrifice being burned and how it's symbolic of Christs cruxcifixion. He says christians should bear the Lord's reproach. Who was our sin offering reproached by? By God, or by men? And how do christians bear the Lord's reproach?
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Post by mfox on Aug 26, 2020 0:46:39 GMT
Okay if so then why did Jesus die? How did He die for us? What is the purpose of the last supper? Matthew 26:26-29 26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
How would His blood be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins if He’s not in our place?
Jesus laid his life down freely for us, but this doesnt mean he condoned his murder. The murder of Jesus showed man's hatred for God. Partaking of the bread and wine is symbolized abiding in Christ, He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. Jn.6:56 Saying that Jesus laid His life down for us doesn’t answer the question why did He die? If what you say is true Jesus didn’t need to die there was no purpose for it.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 26, 2020 1:13:04 GMT
Jesus laid his life down freely for us, but this doesnt mean he condoned his murder. The murder of Jesus showed man's hatred for God. Partaking of the bread and wine is symbolized abiding in Christ, He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. Jn.6:56 Saying that Jesus laid His life down for us doesn’t answer the question why did He die? If what you say is true Jesus didn’t need to die there was no purpose for it. You mean, why did Jesus need to overcome death? 1) To destroy the works of the devil. 2) So our faith and hope would be in God, regardless of circumstance. 3) As a witness against unrepentant sinners.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 26, 2020 2:30:03 GMT
So what exactly do you mean when you wrote that Jesus suffer injustice for us? How can suffering injustice bring salvation? By the way you still have not commented on 2 Cor.5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Regarding Mt. 12:41; Jesus is condemning the scribes and Pharisees for refusing to listen to His preaching and recognizing His Messiahship while the men of Nineveh repented at the teaching of a prophet. When I say Jesus suffered injustice for us, I mean, the will of God...that ye suffer for well doing...for Chriist also hath once suffered for sins 1Pet.3:17-18 Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21 You ask how suffering brings salvation. It's simply because sharing the gospel will cause the unrepentant to hate you, If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you Jn.5:20 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin 1Pet.4:1 Jesus came preaching the truth so we might be saved and was hated by men and suffered by them. Jesus didnt suffer God's wrath. He suffered mans wrath, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath Lk.4:28 God's wrath is on the unrepentant, not the Son. And so, when 2Cor.6:21 says the Father made the Son to be sin for us, he means sinful, like this, they have called the master of the house Beelzebub Mt.10:25 And the Nenevites were saved because they repented, not because they offered sacrifice. Journeyman this post needs looking at in more detail. You wrote ‘When I say Jesus suffered injustice for us, I mean, the will of God...that ye suffer for well doing...for Chriist also hath once suffered for sins 1Pet.3:17-18’ In context this verse speaks of doing right in an unethical and unfriendly world. It does not teach that Jesus suffered injustice for us. In contrast it teaches that Jesus voluntary died as an atonement for our sin, thus bringing us to God. “13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:”(1 Peter 3:13-18 (KJV) You also wrote ‘Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21’ If we look at this verse in its context we can see that Peter is addressing servants and unjust master’s. He then addresses the suffering of Jesus when he wrote: “his own self bare our sins in his own body” Then quotes Isaiah 53 “by whose stripes ye were healed.” “18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”(1 Peter 2:18-25 (KJV) In answer to my question ‘How can suffering injustice bring salvation?’ you wrote ‘You ask how suffering brings salvation. It's simply because sharing the gospel will cause the unrepentant to hate you,’ Sorry but this does not make sense. I fail to understand how I can experience salvation because the unrepentant hate me. I do agree with you when you wrote: ‘Jesus didnt suffer God's wrath.’ The sacrificial death of Jesus was part of Gods plan for the salvation of humanity: “14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:14-17 (KJV) John the Baptist recognized Jesus as the Promised One “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”(John 1:29 (KJV)
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Post by foxjj on Aug 26, 2020 7:33:24 GMT
Okay if so then why did Jesus die? How did He die for us? What is the purpose of the last supper? Matthew 26:26-29 26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
How would His blood be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins if He’s not in our place?
Jesus laid his life down freely for us, but this doesnt mean he condoned his murder. The murder of Jesus showed man's hatred for God. Partaking of the bread and wine is symbolized abiding in Christ, He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. Jn.6:56 The last supper was a Seder meal commemorating the Passover when the Passover lamb was slain and eaten: “11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover. 12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. 14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.”(Exodus 12:11-14 (KJV) It was during this meal that Jesus revealed to the dispels that He was about to fulfill the sacrificial feast as the Passover Lamb. The feast had been a foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice of Messiah as the Lamb of God. Therefore partaking of the bread and wine does not symbolize abiding in Christ, instead it shows our belief in the new covenant in the blood of Christ: “23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.”(1 Corinthians 11:23-26 (KJV) On the other hand John Ch.6 does teach the importance of abiding in Christ. The chapter starts with the miracle of the feeding of the five thousand. In His sermon Jesus teaches the importance of relining upon Him. Just as the people had eaten the bread and were fed, so compleat dependencies upon Jesus will fulfill all of our spiritual needs.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 26, 2020 13:05:00 GMT
When I say Jesus suffered injustice for us, I mean, the will of God...that ye suffer for well doing...for Chriist also hath once suffered for sins 1Pet.3:17-18 Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21 You ask how suffering brings salvation. It's simply because sharing the gospel will cause the unrepentant to hate you, If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you Jn.5:20 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin 1Pet.4:1 Jesus came preaching the truth so we might be saved and was hated by men and suffered by them. Jesus didnt suffer God's wrath. He suffered mans wrath, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath Lk.4:28 God's wrath is on the unrepentant, not the Son. And so, when 2Cor.6:21 says the Father made the Son to be sin for us, he means sinful, like this, they have called the master of the house Beelzebub Mt.10:25 And the Nenevites were saved because they repented, not because they offered sacrifice. Journeyman this post needs looking at in more detail. You wrote ‘When I say Jesus suffered injustice for us, I mean, the will of God...that ye suffer for well doing...for Chriist also hath once suffered for sins 1Pet.3:17-18’ In context this verse speaks of doing right in an unethical and unfriendly world. It does not teach that Jesus suffered injustice for us. In contrast it teaches that Jesus voluntary died as an atonement for our sin, thus bringing us to God. “13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:”(1 Peter 3:13-18 (KJV) You also wrote ‘Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21’ If we look at this verse in its context we can see that Peter is addressing servants and unjust master’s. He then addresses the suffering of Jesus when he wrote: “his own self bare our sins in his own body” Then quotes Isaiah 53 “by whose stripes ye were healed.” “18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”(1 Peter 2:18-25 (KJV) In answer to my question ‘How can suffering injustice bring salvation?’ you wrote ‘You ask how suffering brings salvation. It's simply because sharing the gospel will cause the unrepentant to hate you,’ Sorry but this does not make sense. I fail to understand how I can experience salvation because the unrepentant hate me. I do agree with you when you wrote: ‘Jesus didnt suffer God's wrath.’ The sacrificial death of Jesus was part of Gods plan for the salvation of humanity: “14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:14-17 (KJV) John the Baptist recognized Jesus as the Promised One “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”(John 1:29 (KJV) The context of the scripture I cited includes being prepared to give answers of our hope to unbelievers, for which some may speak evil of our conversation about Jesus, for which, Peter says, believers suffer....for Jesus also suffered. I don't know why you don't understand that faith came by hearing and the speakers suffered for speaking. If Jesus would have said nothing, he wouldn't have been executed. If the Apostles had kept silent, they wouldnt have been beated by the religious leaders. We have salvation because people suffered bringing the gospel to us, the greatest witness being our Lord. I'm not going to copy your other post I read it. You saying the bread and wine doesnt symbolize abiding in Christ and I cited Jesus saying it does, unless he was talking about literally eating his flesh and drinking his blood as some of the people who heard him thought, The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jn.6:52 I understand Passover. I know Jesus voluntarily shed his blood to release us from bondage. This doesnt mean the actions of those who abused him were just. That Jesus committed himself to his Father in the face of the sin that was being heaped on him doesnt make the sin being heaped on him just. You've been reading Isa.53 the wrong way for so long you don't see this. Same thing happened to me. The spitting, the lying against, the torture and murder of Jesus isnt justice. Its a manifestation of mans hatred for God and God's perseverance in love in spite of it.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 26, 2020 16:16:14 GMT
Once more I do thank you for your response journeyman. The problem that we are having is the understanding of salvation. As you so rightly wrote the early believers did indeed suffer for the Gospel, however their suffering did not bring salvation. They suffered for their belief in the Gospel message of Salvation through the Atoning Sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus. Salvation only comes once we have heard the Gospel message and the Holy Spirit enlightens us to the truth that Jesus died to atone for my sin, bringing conviction and repentance. “8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”(Romans 10:8-13)
Regarding John Ch 6, as I explained the chapter starts with the miracle of the feeding of the five thousand. In His sermon Jesus teaches the importance of relining upon Him. Just as the people had eaten the bread and were fed, so compleat dependencies upon Jesus will fulfill all of our spiritual needs, the last few verses are the key to its understanding: “60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”(John 6:60-69) Again it is the Holy Spirit who gives understanding “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.” It is the Holy Spirits enlightenment that makes the difference between religion and Christianity. John 14:26 “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
You wrote that you understand Passover. I do not think that you understand the foreshadowing of Christ’s atoning sacrificial in it. Just as the Passover lamb was a blood atonement when it’s blood was put on the door posts of the Hebrew people in order for the death angle to pass over, so also the Blood of Jesus becomes our atonement and the wrath of God for sin will pass over those who believe: “27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”(Matthew 26:27-28)
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Post by Naama on Aug 26, 2020 21:54:29 GMT
You are very wrong foxjj. Scripture is crystal clear that salvstion is not a single one time event.
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Post by Naama on Aug 26, 2020 22:48:26 GMT
So suffering and martrdom would be part of bring saved along with baptism, communion, feeding the poor and childbearing
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Post by journeyman on Aug 27, 2020 1:09:55 GMT
Once more I do thank you for your response journeyman. The problem that we are having is the understanding of salvation. As you so rightly wrote the early believers did indeed suffer for the Gospel, however their suffering did not bring salvation. They suffered for their belief in the Gospel message of Salvation through the Atoning Sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus. Salvation only comes once we have heard the Gospel message and the Holy Spirit enlightens us to the truth that Jesus died to atone for my sin, bringing conviction and repentance. “8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”(Romans 10:8-13) Regarding John Ch 6, as I explained the chapter starts with the miracle of the feeding of the five thousand. In His sermon Jesus teaches the importance of relining upon Him. Just as the people had eaten the bread and were fed, so compleat dependencies upon Jesus will fulfill all of our spiritual needs, the last few verses are the key to its understanding: “60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”(John 6:60-69) Again it is the Holy Spirit who gives understanding “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.” It is the Holy Spirits enlightenment that makes the difference between religion and Christianity. John 14:26 “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” You wrote that you understand Passover. I do not think that you understand the foreshadowing of Christ’s atoning sacrificial in it. Just as the Passover lamb was a blood atonement when it’s blood was put on the door posts of the Hebrew people in order for the death angle to pass over, so also the Blood of Jesus becomes our atonement and the wrath of God for sin will pass over those who believe: “27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”(Matthew 26:27-28) I thank you also for your responses foxjj. I understand that people are saved by God's grace through in faith in Jesus. I really didn't think I needed to qualify that when you asked how people are saved by suffering. People are saved by (hearing the gospel of) Christ (communicated through preachers who endured suffering and believing in him. Besides this, your original disagreement wasn't with Jesus's followers who tasted how their Master suffered. Your position was that Jesus 1) suffered in place of us and 2) didn't suffer injustice. Both are foreign to God's character and justice. Before we continue, I just noticed how certain passages of scripture you're citing are being worded. Do you believe the so called teachings of "total depravity", or "irrisitable grace"?
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Post by foxjj on Aug 27, 2020 2:27:30 GMT
You are very wrong foxjj. Scripture is crystal clear that salvstion is not a single one time event. Can you explain what you mean Naama.
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Post by mfox on Aug 27, 2020 2:29:33 GMT
I think we need to define salvation
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Post by mfox on Aug 27, 2020 2:33:49 GMT
I think what Naama is saying is that salvation is more than just going to heaven I’ve discussed this with her before
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Post by foxjj on Aug 27, 2020 2:59:44 GMT
Once more I do thank you for your response journeyman. The problem that we are having is the understanding of salvation. As you so rightly wrote the early believers did indeed suffer for the Gospel, however their suffering did not bring salvation. They suffered for their belief in the Gospel message of Salvation through the Atoning Sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus. Salvation only comes once we have heard the Gospel message and the Holy Spirit enlightens us to the truth that Jesus died to atone for my sin, bringing conviction and repentance. “8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”(Romans 10:8-13) Regarding John Ch 6, as I explained the chapter starts with the miracle of the feeding of the five thousand. In His sermon Jesus teaches the importance of relining upon Him. Just as the people had eaten the bread and were fed, so compleat dependencies upon Jesus will fulfill all of our spiritual needs, the last few verses are the key to its understanding: “60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”(John 6:60-69) Again it is the Holy Spirit who gives understanding “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.” It is the Holy Spirits enlightenment that makes the difference between religion and Christianity. John 14:26 “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” You wrote that you understand Passover. I do not think that you understand the foreshadowing of Christ’s atoning sacrificial in it. Just as the Passover lamb was a blood atonement when it’s blood was put on the door posts of the Hebrew people in order for the death angle to pass over, so also the Blood of Jesus becomes our atonement and the wrath of God for sin will pass over those who believe: “27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”(Matthew 26:27-28) I thank you also for your responses foxjj. I understand that people are saved by God's grace through in faith in Jesus. I really didn't think I needed to qualify that when you asked how people are saved by suffering. People are saved by (hearing the gospel of) Christ (communicated through preachers who endured suffering and believing in him. Besides this, your original disagreement wasn't with Jesus's followers who tasted how their Master suffered. Your position was that Jesus 1) suffered in place of us and 2) didn't suffer injustice. Both are foreign to God's character and justice. Before we continue, I just noticed how certain passages of scripture you're citing are being worded. Do you believe the so called teachings of "total depravity", or "irrisitable grace"? The reason I asked for you to explain how we can be saved through suffering is because that is what you communicated. Enduring suffering was indeed common among the early believers however, their suffering did not equate salvation. Regarding our original disagreement, I would say that we are still in disagreement on those two points. We still need to have a fundamental understanding of Salvation. You asked if I believe the teachings of "total depravity", or "irrisitable grace" I do not allow myself to be labeled because I look for the truth in Scripture, knowing that many different teachers will vary in their understandings.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 27, 2020 11:37:07 GMT
Foxjj, I understand it isn't the suffering of anyone except Christ which atones for us, as Paul rhetorically asked, "was Paul crucified for you?" 1Cor.1:13, but atonement isn't accomplished by Christ dying in place of sinners. It's accomplished by faith in what Jesus taught and we believe because he died and rose again. He brings the believing, the ones who come humbly, into oneness with himself by the Holy Spirit, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jn.14:23 This is how people are born again. The reason I asked about whether you believe in so called "points of Calvanism", is because your comment that salvation comes from hearing the gospel and the Holy Spirit enlightening us, as if hearing the gospel wasn't a way the Holy Spirit enlightens us to begin with. That, along with the terminology of Jn.6:44 from the version of the Bible you're quoting from, where no one can come to Christ unless the Father "enables" him, gives the impression that God may not want someone to come to Christ, which I believe is heresy. I also don't like labels, but for the purpose of understanding where you're coming from, I asked whether you believe in doctrines commonly understood as points of Calvanism. So when you read that no one can come to Jesus unless God "enables" him, do you believe the scripture is speaking of "irresistable grace" Im asking because I disagree with such teachings. My position on Jn.6 is that Jesus said no one can come to me unless the Father draws him, because to come to Christ, you must love God. Jesus was identifying himself with God. We're "drawn" to God by the way God is. Where the Hebrews put the blood of the passover lamb on their dwelling places to avoid judgement, that also was for producing humbleness in the people, Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us 1Cor.5:7
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Post by Naama on Aug 27, 2020 19:12:30 GMT
Why wouldn't suffering be part of salvation?
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Post by journeyman on Aug 27, 2020 20:38:33 GMT
Why wouldn't suffering be part of salvation? It is, Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind 1Pet.4:1 all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2Tim.3:12 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mt.16:24 Many more. Only Jesus"s suffering atones, or causes oneness with God, as sin causes death and as Jesus was sinless, his death sentence was unjust. Therefore he rose from death and lives forever, whereby we have faith in God. Thanks and praise you Lord Jesus
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Post by Naama on Aug 27, 2020 20:58:36 GMT
Christ the victor!
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Post by journeyman on Aug 27, 2020 22:43:09 GMT
He certainly did get the victory Naama, over the iniquity of us all. Being the Creator and having his creation spit on him. Always helping people and then getting abused by men. God forgive us.
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