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Post by journeyman on Aug 22, 2020 21:11:03 GMT
My understanding is that the Father chose to have the Son appear as any human and was accused of being sinful,
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh Rom.8:3 we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24. ye have heard his blasphemy. He is guilty of death.Mt.26:65-66
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Post by foxjj on Aug 23, 2020 6:53:16 GMT
Thank you for your response journeyman. Please allow me to share my thoughts;
In the Hebrew Covenant the attempt to be reconciled to God was undertaken with sacrifices of atonement, of which were understood as a covering for sin. The book of Leviticus has list's of instructions to the people concerning sacrificial offerings by which they can make atonement for their sins.
God could have left humanity to continue with their endless endeavours of reconciliation - offering sacrifices continually. However, the good news is He did not, instead, our Heavenly Father promised a Messiah; a Saviour who would; "save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21) When the time was right, Jesus came into history in order to make a way for you and I to attain reconciliation with our Merciful God.
Isaiah foretold how Messiah would take upon Himself the iniquity of our sin by His death: “Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all: (Isaiah 53:4-6)
Through the atoning sacrifice of His blood, Jesus made the way for redemption onto God: “For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.” (Hebrews 9:13-15)
In John Chapter 3, Jesus told Nicodemus that one has to be born again of The Spirit if they desired to enter the Kingdom of God. Then in verses 14 and 15, Jesus foretold His own sacrificial death on the cross when He said: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” That the atoning death of Jesus was part of God’s pre ordained plan is clear in verses 16 and 17: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
This then brings us to 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
All who have repented of their sins and accepted the sacrifice of Jesus as an atonement on their behalf are born again and have become a new creation, their old life and sins have passed away as stated in verse 17. Paul goes on to explain that as ambassadors of Christ, he and the other disciples proclaimed the Gospel of Reconciliation explaining that God was in Christ reconciling sinful humanity through the sacrifice of Jesus as verse 21 clearly teaches: “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
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Post by journeyman on Aug 23, 2020 14:41:38 GMT
Foxjj, I appreciate your sincerity, but nothing you've cited supports substitutionary atomement. Jesus wasnt't "suffering "the wrath of God" on the cross. He was suffering the wrath of men. The OT sacrifices weren't substitutionary. They did foreshadow Christ, but without a repentant heart, your sins weren't forgiven,
despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom.2:4
God's goodness and forbearance and longsuffering are proven by Jesus, who endured the sin of the beating and mocking and murder of himself without destroying his tormentors. God never looked at his Son as sin,
Woe to them that call....good evil....and take away the innocence of the innocent Isa.5:20,23
God doesn't do what he despises. We've already talked in previous posts about Isa.53, the OT scrificial system and NT passages in your last post. Please my friend, try rereadng them without the preconceived substitution perspective. It's like a light switch going on.
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Post by BlueSky on Aug 23, 2020 15:29:21 GMT
Hi Journeyman. I’ve never heard your understanding of this ever before in over 25 years. I don’t think anyone in my entire circle has ever heard this either. Substitutionary atonement as John has clearly laid out is, imo- overwhelmingly found in scripture, to say otherwise mystifies me brother. I liked this. youtu.be/G_OlRWGLdnw
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Post by foxjj on Aug 23, 2020 15:47:59 GMT
Foxjj, I appreciate your sincerity, but nothing you've cited supports substitutionary atomement. Jesus wasnt't "suffering "the wrath of God" on the cross. He was suffering the wrath of men. The OT sacrifices weren't substitutionary. They did foreshadow Christ, but without a repentant heart, your sins weren't forgiven, despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom.2:4 God's goodness and forbearance and longsuffering are proven by Jesus, who endured the sin of the beating and mocking and murder of himself without destroying his tormentors. God never looked at his Son as sin, Woe to them that call....good evil....and take away the innocence of the innocent Isa.5:20,23 God doesn't do what he despises. We've already talked in previous posts about Isa.53, the OT scrificial system and NT passages in your last post. Please my friend, try rereadng them without the preconceived substitution perspective. It's like a light switch going on. As I have already sadly stated we will not agree on this most important truth of Scripture. That been the case can you explain how we are saved if Jesus did not go to the cross as the sacrificial lamb slain for our sins.? Without that truth there is no Gospel.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 23, 2020 19:23:54 GMT
Hi Journeyman. I’ve never heard your understanding of this ever before in over 25 years. I don’t think anyone in my entire circle has ever heard this either. Substitutionary atonement as John has clearly laid out is, imo- overwhelmingly found in scripture, to say otherwise mystifies me brother. I liked this. youtu.be/G_OlRWGLdnwI never heard it for 40 years, but I"m glad I finally listened. I watched your video. It correctly begins with the fact that we have a debt that we can'repay, but then appears to teach that God can't forgive without the debt being paid. This assumption isn't true, as Jesus taught in Lk.7:42 and Mt.18:32 and in other scripture where God forgives the repentant without sacrifice. Would you give me your interpretation of the scripture below? The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20
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Post by journeyman on Aug 23, 2020 19:38:11 GMT
Foxjj, I appreciate your sincerity, but nothing you've cited supports substitutionary atomement. Jesus wasnt't "suffering "the wrath of God" on the cross. He was suffering the wrath of men. The OT sacrifices weren't substitutionary. They did foreshadow Christ, but without a repentant heart, your sins weren't forgiven, despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom.2:4 God's goodness and forbearance and longsuffering are proven by Jesus, who endured the sin of the beating and mocking and murder of himself without destroying his tormentors. God never looked at his Son as sin, Woe to them that call....good evil....and take away the innocence of the innocent Isa.5:20,23 God doesn't do what he despises. We've already talked in previous posts about Isa.53, the OT scrificial system and NT passages in your last post. Please my friend, try rereadng them without the preconceived substitution perspective. It's like a light switch going on. As I have already sadly stated we will not agree on this most important truth of Scripture. That been the case can you explain how we are saved if Jesus did not go to the cross as the sacrificial lamb slain for our sins.? Without that truth there is no Gospel. I never said Jesus didn't go to the cross for our sins. You interpret "for our sins" to mean "in place of, or substitution for our sins" and that's not true. It simply means, "because we're sinners." Because we're sinners, because of our sin, Jesus suffered injustice for us...for us, not in place of us. I've commented on all the scriptures you've cited. You haven't done the same for the scriptures I've cited. Interpret this, The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Mt.12:41
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Post by BlueSky on Aug 23, 2020 21:00:13 GMT
Hi Journeyman. I’ve never heard your understanding of this ever before in over 25 years. I don’t think anyone in my entire circle has ever heard this either. Substitutionary atonement as John has clearly laid out is, imo- overwhelmingly found in scripture, to say otherwise mystifies me brother. I liked this. youtu.be/G_OlRWGLdnwI never heard it for 40 years, but I"m glad I finally listened. I watched your video. It correctly begins with the fact that we have a debt that we can'repay, but then appears to teach that God can't forgive without the debt being paid. This assumption isn't true, as Jesus taught in Lk.7:42 and Mt.18:32 and in other scripture where God forgives the repentant without sacrifice. Would you give me your interpretation of the scripture below? The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20 Well, I don’t know what you’ve been listening to for 40 years, but it’s very fringe & cult-like imo. I am concerned here. Can you name someone we may know who follows this view? A movement ? The verse you provided supports our view, not yours. How odd.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 24, 2020 5:17:45 GMT
As I have already sadly stated we will not agree on this most important truth of Scripture. That been the case can you explain how we are saved if Jesus did not go to the cross as the sacrificial lamb slain for our sins.? Without that truth there is no Gospel. I never said Jesus didn't go to the cross for our sins. You interpret "for our sins" to mean "in place of, or substitution for our sins" and that's not true. It simply means, "because we're sinners." Because we're sinners, because of our sin, Jesus suffered injustice for us...for us, not in place of us. I've commented on all the scriptures you've cited. You haven't done the same for the scriptures I've cited. Interpret this, The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Mt.12:41 So what exactly do you mean when you wrote that Jesus suffer injustice for us? How can suffering injustice bring salvation? By the way you still have not commented on 2 Cor.5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Regarding Mt. 12:41; Jesus is condemning the scribes and Pharisees for refusing to listen to His preaching and recognizing His Messiahship while the men of Nineveh repented at the teaching of a prophet.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 24, 2020 7:41:21 GMT
I never heard it for 40 years, but I"m glad I finally listened. I watched your video. It correctly begins with the fact that we have a debt that we can'repay, but then appears to teach that God can't forgive without the debt being paid. This assumption isn't true, as Jesus taught in Lk.7:42 and Mt.18:32 and in other scripture where God forgives the repentant without sacrifice. Would you give me your interpretation of the scripture below? The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20 Well, I don’t know what you’ve been listening to for 40 years, but it’s very fringe & cult-like imo. I am concerned here. Can you name someone we may know who follows this view? A movement ? The verse you provided supports our view, not yours. How odd. What I meant was, for 40 years i was taught that God punished his Son in place of me. That's by far the majority view, but it's not true according to Eze.18 and the many other passages of scripture being posted here. I can't name anyone or an organization who believes like i do. The Jew who taught me has passed away. He was outcast from the synagogue as I am now from the church. I'm not bothered anymore by being the minority, or even being alone. Eze.18 says one won't be punished in place of another The repentant are righteous before the Lord.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 24, 2020 8:42:59 GMT
I never said Jesus didn't go to the cross for our sins. You interpret "for our sins" to mean "in place of, or substitution for our sins" and that's not true. It simply means, "because we're sinners." Because we're sinners, because of our sin, Jesus suffered injustice for us...for us, not in place of us. I've commented on all the scriptures you've cited. You haven't done the same for the scriptures I've cited. Interpret this, The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Mt.12:41 So what exactly do you mean when you wrote that Jesus suffer injustice for us? How can suffering injustice bring salvation? By the way you still have not commented on 2 Cor.5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Regarding Mt. 12:41; Jesus is condemning the scribes and Pharisees for refusing to listen to His preaching and recognizing His Messiahship while the men of Nineveh repented at the teaching of a prophet. When I say Jesus suffered injustice for us, I mean, the will of God...that ye suffer for well doing...for Chriist also hath once suffered for sins 1Pet.3:17-18 Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21 You ask how suffering brings salvation. It's simply because sharing the gospel will cause the unrepentant to hate you, If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you Jn.5:20 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin 1Pet.4:1 Jesus came preaching the truth so we might be saved and was hated by men and suffered by them. Jesus didnt suffer God's wrath. He suffered mans wrath, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath Lk.4:28 God's wrath is on the unrepentant, not the Son. And so, when 2Cor.6:21 says the Father made the Son to be sin for us, he means sinful, like this, they have called the master of the house Beelzebub Mt.10:25 And the Nenevites were saved because they repented, not because they offered sacrifice.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 24, 2020 15:29:08 GMT
Wow. That is one twisted gospel.
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Post by Naama on Aug 24, 2020 21:42:43 GMT
Journeyman, the penal substitution doctrine is actually a minority view in Christianity. Its only a majority belief in evangelical circles not held in the eastern orthodox,Roman catholic or coptic churches
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Post by journeyman on Aug 24, 2020 21:59:34 GMT
It's not twisted to say the unrepentant hate God and poured out their wrath on him when he appeared as a human. That's exactly what hat happened.
But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
It's twisted to say the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all the godliness and righteousness of Christ, who held the truth in righteousness.
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mt.17:5
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. Jn.15:18
on their part he is evil spoken of, 1Pet:4:14
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Post by journeyman on Aug 24, 2020 22:19:54 GMT
Journeyman, the penal substitution doctrine is actually a minority view in Christianity. Its only a majority belief in evangelical circles not held in the eastern orthodox,Roman catholic or coptic churches Ok. I don't know what those churches teach. Any church i was ever a member of or visited did teach it. After coming to see the scriptures as i do now, I was no longer wecome in church. I understand that believers should all speak the same thing, so no hard feelings. I'm very limited in knowledge of other Christian sects. I pray and ask the Lord for help.
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Post by Naama on Aug 24, 2020 23:21:33 GMT
That's strange journeyman because penal substitution is not something anyone should get kicked out of church for. Since none of the historical churches have never taught or believed it means you are probably right
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Post by Naama on Aug 24, 2020 23:24:53 GMT
I like what you said journeyman because penal substitution divides the Trunity.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 25, 2020 0:22:37 GMT
That's strange journeyman because penal substitution is not something anyone should get kicked out of church for. Since none of the historical churches have never taught or believed it means you are probably right Well, if you ever disagree with the pastor of a Baptist chuch about penal substitution, I don't think you'll be in that church for long. Except for the Bible, I know next to nothing of church history.
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Post by journeyman on Aug 25, 2020 0:47:26 GMT
I like what you said journeyman because penal substitution divides the Trunity. It does. God punishing himself in plave of sinners makes no sense.
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Post by mfox on Aug 25, 2020 20:22:24 GMT
I like what you said journeyman because penal substitution divides the Trunity. It does. God punishing himself in plave of sinners makes no sense. Okay if so then why did Jesus die? How did He die for us? What is the purpose of the last supper? Matthew 26:26-29 26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
How would His blood be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins if He’s not in our place?
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