beckrl
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Post by beckrl on Aug 1, 2020 14:09:03 GMT
REVELATION 9 PIT OF DARKNESS AND SMOKE
9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
The opening of the bottomless pit or abyss which is a place described as a great gulf, gorge, void, depth, darkness in which when opened smoke arose up and covered the light of the sun in so much that the air was full of smoke. Here John is given that this place of darkness which john used as a symbolical metaphor of men in darkness that cannot see the way.
A few examples of its use as a metaphor.
Isaiah 9:2 “The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death, a light has dawned.”
Isaiah 50:10 Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the voice of his servant? Let him who walks in darkness and has no light trust in the name of the LORD and rely on his God.
Ephesians 5:8 “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light,”
1 John 5 “And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.…”
So therefore this place of darkness of which the smoke arose is symbolical metaphorical of a place of spiritual darkness not having the light or knowledge of God, walking in darkness no knowing the truth.
The darkness opened up and smoke arose which is another metaphor for covering up or to hide the truth which is the other part of the metaphor as to cover or hid the light of the sun. Again this is toward men speaking lies to cover up and hide the truth of God’s words. At this time a great falling away would happen and many would be deceived by all manner of wicked doctrines.
Matthew 24” 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
2 Peter 2 “But there were false prophets also among the people, EVEN THERE SHALL BE FALSE TEACHERS among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Acts 20:30 “Also of your own selves SHALL MEN ARISE, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”
2 Timothy 3” 3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
CONCLUSION
This was a clear warning that of evil men even among their own selves that would arise up to teach abominable heresies and as the vision given to John we see in his imagery such of ones coming up out of the pit of darkness.
Roger Beck.
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Post by mfox on Aug 1, 2020 17:28:28 GMT
REVELATION 9 PIT OF DARKNESS AND SMOKE 9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. The opening of the bottomless pit or abyss which is a place described as a great gulf, gorge, void, depth, darkness in which when opened smoke arose up and covered the light of the sun in so much that the air was full of smoke. Here John is given that this place of darkness which john used as a symbolical metaphor of men in darkness that cannot see the way. A few examples of its use as a metaphor. Isaiah 9:2 “The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death, a light has dawned.” Isaiah 50:10 Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the voice of his servant? Let him who walks in darkness and has no light trust in the name of the LORD and rely on his God. Ephesians 5:8 “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light,” 1 John 5 “And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.…” So therefore this place of darkness of which the smoke arose is symbolical metaphorical of a place of spiritual darkness not having the light or knowledge of God, walking in darkness no knowing the truth. The darkness opened up and smoke arose which is another metaphor for covering up or to hide the truth which is the other part of the metaphor as to cover or hid the light of the sun. Again this is toward men speaking lies to cover up and hide the truth of God’s words. At this time a great falling away would happen and many would be deceived by all manner of wicked doctrines. Matthew 24” 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” 2 Peter 2 “But there were false prophets also among the people, EVEN THERE SHALL BE FALSE TEACHERS among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. Acts 20:30 “Also of your own selves SHALL MEN ARISE, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.” 2 Timothy 3” 3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. CONCLUSION This was a clear warning that of evil men even among their own selves that would arise up to teach abominable heresies and as the vision given to John we see in his imagery such of ones coming up out of the pit of darkness. Roger Beck. This is a very good study with great insite and I agree but to add to this let’s see who actually the destroyer is and see if it helps to confirm your view Revelation 9:1:11 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. 7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer). When reading this we see that this demonic being can’t harm those who have the seal of God and we see this same thing in Exodus Exodus 12:21-23 21 Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. 22 Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. None of you shall go out of the door of your house until morning. 23 When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down In both chapters above we see that both beings are called the destroyer and Jesus calls satan a destroyer and a murderer John 10:10 Verse Concepts The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. We also see that this star falls from heaven in revelation 9:1 and Isaiah tells us the very same thing Isaiah 14:12 “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! Thus I believe that this destroyer is satan himself and he is the father of lies and his lies become darkness which covers up the truth
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beckrl
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Post by beckrl on Aug 1, 2020 20:24:08 GMT
As toward Satan let's understand it simply mean an adversary, one in opposition. We see how Jesus used this term toward Peter.
Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
James describes this as the spirit of anti-christ. That spirit of man that goes against all that Christ stands for.
That's why I believe John in Revelation was using imagery of invading locust that would come up out of darkness to spread it in so deceiving the people.
One reason why the righteous was not hurt would it because they were taught the truth and was warned of coming deceivers among them in sheep clothing.
I then understand these locust and war horses as false teachers which come among the people to deceive them to believe lies and heresies.
Another reason why John spoke of a False Prophet. A personification of False Teachers that come among the people of Israel.
As well John describes simular imagery that Isaiah mention of the head and tail... I thought I had mention this in my opening post.
Isaiah 9:15 the elder and honored man is the head, and the prophet who teaches lies is the tail;
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Post by mfox on Aug 1, 2020 21:56:18 GMT
As toward Satan let's understand it simply mean an adversary, one in opposition. We see how Jesus used this term toward Peter. Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.” James describes this as the spirit of anti-christ. That spirit of man that goes against all that Christ stands for. That's why I believe John in Revelation was using imagery of invading locust that would come up out of darkness to spread it in so deceiving the people. One reason why the righteous was not hurt would it because they were taught the truth and was warned of coming deceivers among them in sheep clothing. I then understand these locust and war horses as false teachers which come among the people to deceive them to believe lies and heresies. Another reason why John spoke of a False Prophet. A personification of False Teachers that come among the people of Israel. As well John describes simular imagery that Isaiah mention of the head and tail... I thought I had mention this in my opening post. Isaiah 9:15 the elder and honored man is the head, and the prophet who teaches lies is the tail; Are you saying that you don’t think that satan is a single being? I believe that Joel chapter two shows us who the locus are
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beckrl
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Posts: 59
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Post by beckrl on Aug 2, 2020 14:58:43 GMT
As toward Satan let's understand it simply mean an adversary, one in opposition. We see how Jesus used this term toward Peter. Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.” James describes this as the spirit of anti-christ. That spirit of man that goes against all that Christ stands for. That's why I believe John in Revelation was using imagery of invading locust that would come up out of darkness to spread it in so deceiving the people. One reason why the righteous was not hurt would it because they were taught the truth and was warned of coming deceivers among them in sheep clothing. I then understand these locust and war horses as false teachers which come among the people to deceive them to believe lies and heresies. Another reason why John spoke of a False Prophet. A personification of False Teachers that come among the people of Israel. As well John describes simular imagery that Isaiah mention of the head and tail... I thought I had mention this in my opening post. Isaiah 9:15 the elder and honored man is the head, and the prophet who teaches lies is the tail; Are you saying that you don’t think that satan is a single being? I believe that Joel chapter two shows us who the locus are That's correct I don't see Satan as being a single being. The word satan is to say adversary, opposition ,opponent ,henderer. Jesus as well told the Pharisees that they were the children of the Devil (Satan). That was a way Christ was telling them they follow after the carnal mindedness of men rather than follow the word and spirit of God. Joel was using locust metaphorically of invading armies, John used that same image of invading false teachers as we can see from the description of the head and tail the same imagery Isaiah spoke of the Elders and Prophets which cause the people of Israel to sin.
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Post by mfox on Aug 2, 2020 16:24:38 GMT
Are you saying that you don’t think that satan is a single being? I believe that Joel chapter two shows us who the locus are That's correct I don't see Satan as being a single being. The word satan is to say adversary, opposition ,opponent ,henderer. Jesus as well told the Pharisees that they were the children of the Devil (Satan). That was a way Christ was telling them they follow after the carnal mindedness of men rather than follow the word and spirit of God. Joel was using locust metaphorically of invading armies, John used that same image of invading false teachers as we can see from the description of the head and tail the same imagery Isaiah spoke of the Elders and Prophets which cause the people of Israel to sin. So who tempted Jesus in the desert or entered Jesus or who asked God to harm Job?
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Post by mfox on Aug 2, 2020 16:31:14 GMT
That's correct I don't see Satan as being a single being. The word satan is to say adversary, opposition ,opponent ,henderer. Jesus as well told the Pharisees that they were the children of the Devil (Satan). That was a way Christ was telling them they follow after the carnal mindedness of men rather than follow the word and spirit of God. Joel was using locust metaphorically of invading armies, John used that same image of invading false teachers as we can see from the description of the head and tail the same imagery Isaiah spoke of the Elders and Prophets which cause the people of Israel to sin. So who tempted Jesus in the desert or entered Jesus or who asked God to harm Job? The bible shows it as a individual
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beckrl
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Post by beckrl on Aug 2, 2020 16:51:59 GMT
So who tempted Jesus in the desert or entered Jesus or who asked God to harm Job? The bible shows it as a individual The bible shows it used as the adversary. Jesus was tempted out of his own human desires just like everyone else is tempted. James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. There isnt any one supernatural being that cause temptation and sin against God's law, but man's own self desires. Paul spoke of this as the carnal nature, which is described as the Old Man. With his old sinful nature of lawlessness, fornication, etc. If you read the book of Job you will see that Job decribes who is Satan. It was his friends which came to him and didn't believe in his righteouness and accused him of some sin which has brought about his lost. Again Satan is just a term to mean an adversary.
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Post by mfox on Aug 2, 2020 19:37:57 GMT
The bible shows it used as the adversary. Jesus was tempted out of his own human desires just like everyone else is tempted. James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. There isnt any one supernatural being that cause temptation and sin against God's law, but man's own self desires. Paul spoke of this as the carnal nature, which is described as the Old Man. With his old sinful nature of lawlessness, fornication, etc. If you read the book of Job you will see that Job decribes who is Satan. It was his friends which came to him and didn't believe in his righteouness and accused him of some sin which has brought about his lost. Again Satan is just a term to mean an adversary. I agree with your point here as people give satan way too much credit thinking that all temptation and sin comes from him as he unlike God isn’t omnipresent. Sin and desire comes from mans own heart but that doesn’t discredit that satan is a single being the bible is clean on that Job 2:1-7 2 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
6 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.
The verses above and below are clearly a conversation between God and a single being sin itself can’t affict a person
Luke 4:1-13 4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.
3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”
5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”
9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully; 11 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]” 12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”
13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.
I agree which much of what you are saying but I believe it a mistake not to believe that there is a single being know as satan we need to recognize our main enemy
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Post by journeyman on Aug 2, 2020 20:00:34 GMT
I agree with you brothers. The bottomless pit is like a state people are in. It's like the sinful nature which is never full.
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beckrl
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Post by beckrl on Aug 2, 2020 20:42:51 GMT
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Post by journeyman on Aug 3, 2020 10:06:43 GMT
I believe Satan is a spirit being.
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beckrl
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Post by beckrl on Aug 3, 2020 10:57:10 GMT
I can post alittle more on this later but John decribes Satan the Devil , that old serpent. Revelaton 12 & 20 we shouldn't think that John was describing a single supernatural being, but use of descriptive personification imagery.
SERPENT and Leviathan that sea serpent , Dragon.
Isaiah 27:1, 12 decribes this sea serpent as to be describing Egypt.
In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.
In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, Israel, will be gathered up one by one.
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Post by mfox on Aug 3, 2020 16:27:15 GMT
I can post alittle more on this later but John decribes Satan the Devil , that old serpent. Revelaton 12 & 20 we shouldn't think that John was describing a single supernatural being, but use of descriptive personification imagery. SERPENT and Leviathan that sea serpent , Dragon. Isaiah 27:1, 12 decribes this sea serpent as to be describing Egypt. In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, Israel, will be gathered up one by one. But that still doesn’t rule out that there is a single being called satan. The previous verses I provided and the ones below single out a single being and call him “he” Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 1 John 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 2 Timothy 2:26 And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. I think satans greatest trick is convincing people that he doesn't exist
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beckrl
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by beckrl on Aug 3, 2020 18:04:40 GMT
I can post alittle more on this later but John decribes Satan the Devil , that old serpent. Revelaton 12 & 20 we shouldn't think that John was describing a single supernatural being, but use of descriptive personification imagery. SERPENT and Leviathan that sea serpent , Dragon. Isaiah 27:1, 12 decribes this sea serpent as to be describing Egypt. In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, Israel, will be gathered up one by one. But that still doesn’t rule out that there is a single being called satan. The previous verses I provided and the ones below single out a single being and call him “he” Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 1 John 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 2 Timothy 2:26 And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. I think satans greatest trick is convincing people that he does exist That's what is called personification. Just as John saw the woman (personification of Jerusalem ) he also saw a red Dragon that old serpent (personification of the adversary ) in the imagery of this personification Satan the seven heads Dragon (Leviathan ) is denoting the seven kingdoms which came after Israel and Jerusalem. That's why I see the mention of Satan the (adversary) as the evil religions that were in (opposition) to the word of God. That worked together through these seven pagan kingdoms. Notice Satan gave power to the beast (personification of seven pagan nations) which I believe is to say the world religions gave power to the nations to deceive the people.
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Post by foxjj on Aug 5, 2020 7:11:39 GMT
Sorry Roger but I am in agreement with Marty on this. I do understand the use of imagery in prophecy however, it is dangerous to carry it over into the Gospel message. That Satan is a spiritual reality is made clear by Jesus in His many mentions of him as Marty has made clear. There are many enemies of The Gospel who have used imagery as ways of explaining away the life, and Ministry of Jesus along with the Gospel message of Salvation.
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beckrl
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Post by beckrl on Aug 6, 2020 10:58:30 GMT
Sorry Roger but I am in agreement with Marty on this. I do understand the use of imagery in prophecy however, it is dangerous to carry it over into the Gospel message. That Satan is a spiritual reality is made clear by Jesus in His many mentions of him as Marty has made clear. There are many enemies of The Gospel who have used imagery as ways of explaining away the life, and Ministry of Jesus along with the Gospel message of Salvation. What do you mean by a spiritual reality?
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beckrl
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Post by beckrl on Aug 6, 2020 11:10:04 GMT
For an example Satan is a word for adversary and not meant to be a supernatural being.
Then the Lord raised up an adversary(satan) against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; he was of the royal house in Edom.
Now in certain writings this adversary has been personified (personification )
We have to recognize that the usage to bring about the understanding of the carnal mindness which brings death. That is how Jesus used Satan when speaking about Peter mindset.
But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
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Post by foxjj on Aug 6, 2020 15:33:06 GMT
Sorry Roger but I am in agreement with Marty on this. I do understand the use of imagery in prophecy however, it is dangerous to carry it over into the Gospel message. That Satan is a spiritual reality is made clear by Jesus in His many mentions of him as Marty has made clear. There are many enemies of The Gospel who have used imagery as ways of explaining away the life, and Ministry of Jesus along with the Gospel message of Salvation. What do you mean by a spiritual reality? I mean that Satan, Lucifer, the devil is an actual spirit personality of whom Jesus described while speaking to the Jewish leaders as: “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.“(John 8:44) When reading the words of Jesus one can only discern that He is speaking of a person, although a spiritual personality.
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beckrl
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Post by beckrl on Aug 6, 2020 18:21:16 GMT
What do you mean by a spiritual reality? I mean that Satan, Lucifer, the devil is an actual spirit personality of whom Jesus described while speaking to the Jewish leaders as: “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.“(John 8:44) When reading the words of Jesus one can only discern that He is speaking of a person, although a spiritual personality. One thing that you mention was "Lucifer" from Isaiah. Well that was in reference to the Babylon King not any supernatural being. Isaiah 14 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 11 Thy (Babylon king) pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! It's about how high minded the king of Babylon thought of himself. How great his fall was .... What Jesus was saying to the Phraisses were that they followed after man instead of God. So their father Abba wasn't God nor were they the seed of Abraham, but the seed of Satan (adversary ) ....the adversary is the mindset of man that conforms to the wisdom of this world. Jesus wasn't saying their were the actual children of some supernatural being, but they follow after the mindset of the world. That is the adversary!
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