Who and what is the antichrist?

[journeyman]

I don't know much about history, but how do you see the apostate church? Maybe that's why the false prophet has two horns.

[mfox]

Nov 5, 2019 0:13:39 GMT journeyman said:

I don't know much about history, but how do you see the apostate church? Maybe that's why the false prophet has two horns.

Check out my post on the false prophet on page 2 of this section it will help explain it


I see the apostate church the reason God will end our world explained in my post called When and why will God end our world

[journeyman]

Marty
I read your thread on the false prophet. Much of it makes sense, but the false prophet must go beyond 1st century apostate Israel, because the NT church also includes false prophets. Maybe the two horns on the false prophet represent the perversion of the OT and NT scriptures.

Do you have a belief about what the image is that the false prophet sets up for the 7 headed beast?

[mfox]

Nov 5, 2019 2:03:22 GMT journeyman said:

Marty
I read your thread on the false prophet. Much of it makes sense, but the false prophet must go beyond 1st century apostate Israel, because the NT church also includes false prophets. Maybe the two horns on the false prophet represent the perversion of the OT and NT scriptures.

Do you have a belief about what the image is that the false prophet sets up for the 7 headed beast?

I don’t think that the false prophet in revelation refers to apostate church of today because I believe that most of revelations focus was fulfilled in the first century. The vision was to the first century church so that they could identify them.I believe that the two horns identify a clean animal beast which tells us that it’s Israel. Although I don’t think that the false prophet is complete in apostate Israel

I think the image was that they made the image of Rome come to life in in first century Israel when they declared Cesar king of Israel over God

I do think that the apostate church plays a big role in the end time as the ones satan deceives at his release

who do you mean as the apostate church in our time or the past? 

[journeyman]

Marty,
I believe Revelation is fulfilled in Christ who walked on earth in the 1st century. Of course it's mainly focused on the "end times", which seems to be defined as from when Jesus appeared onward (1Cor.10:11), ("womans remnant" Rev.12:17), but it also pertains to his gospel which is from the beginning ("womans seed Gen.3:15). Of course the "seed" is Christ, but it also pertains to his body of believers who lived throughout the history of the world Rom.9:8, Gal.4:29). I don't mean to say the 1st century is incidental, but the focus is on Christ and his Spirit, which from th scriptures I cited in this post is in every age.

I do believe Satan's release is synonymous with a perversion of the gospel. It has to be, because it's the gospel that binds Satan. The only way santan can be loosed is by making the gospel of no effect and the only way to do that is by distortion. Brother, we are well into that.

The two horned "lamb", a lamb being a follower of the shepherd, in this case a false shepherd. The apostate church is known this way 1Jn.3:10. The beast,false prophet, etc, they're all Children of the devil.

[mfox]

Nov 5, 2019 12:24:57 GMT journeyman said:

Marty,
I believe Revelation is fulfilled in Christ who walked on earth in the 1st century. Of course it's mainly focused on the "end times", which seems to be defined as from when Jesus appeared onward (1Cor.10:11), ("womans remnant" Rev.12:17), but it also pertains to his gospel which is from the beginning ("womans seed Gen.3:15). Of course the "seed" is Christ, but it also pertains to his body of believers who lived throughout the history of the world Rom.9:8, Gal.4:29). I don't mean to say the 1st century is incidental, but the focus is on Christ and his Spirit, which from th scriptures I cited in this post is in every age.

I do believe Satan's release is synonymous with a perversion of the gospel. It has to be, because it's the gospel that binds Satan. The only way santan can be loosed is by making the gospel of no effect and the only way to do that is by distortion. Brother, we are well into that.

The two horned "lamb", a lamb being a follower of the shepherd, in this case a false shepherd. The apostate church is known this way 1Jn.3:10. The beast,false prophet, etc, they're all Children of the devil.

Yes I agree with a lot of what you say here it only Jesus an fulfill revelation and you are bang on with what releases satan.

If you check out my post on history and revelation I think there are 5 or 6 of them in this section you will see where some of the events in revelation were fulfilled in the first century 

[journeyman]

Marty, I read your 6 posts on Revelation. I'm ignorant of history. You may be right about Nero as as a fulfillment of the beast assaulting the saints for 3 1/2 years.

I see the 3 1/2 years as symbolic of the believers faith in Jesus, whose ministry in the 1st century lasted 3 1/2 (?) years.

For instance, the woman (the Israel of God, new Jerusalem, the church), is protected in a place (in Christ) for 3 1/2 years (because of his ministry.

The beast trampled the holy city 3 1/2 years (assaulted our Lords whole ministry, the church because of our faith in his finished work).

Something like that.

[mfox]

Nov 6, 2019 1:17:44 GMT journeyman said:

Marty, I read your 6 posts on Revelation. I'm ignorant of history. You may be right about Nero as as a fulfillment of the beast assaulting the saints for 3 1/2 years.

I see the 3 1/2 years as symbolic of the believers faith in Jesus, whose ministry in the 1st century lasted 3 1/2 (?) years.

For instance, the woman (the Israel of God, new Jerusalem, the church), is protected in a place (in Christ) for 3 1/2 years (because of his ministry.

The beast trampled the holy city 3 1/2 years (assaulted our Lords whole ministry, the church because of our faith in his finished work).

Something like that.

Basically I see the book of revelation or it’s other name the book of  the apocalypse (which means the revealing) as the revelation of Jesus as in who He is and what He did 

Jesus is God and He ushered in the new covenant so it’s a transitional book from the old covenant to the new covenant and from the earthly Jerusalem to the new Jerusalem 

It is also a book of a warning from Jesus to the churches of a soon coming persecution but also a promise that the church will prevail and that Jesus would be with them through it


I also have a post in this section of revelation chapter 12

I also have different post in this section on revelation about the 2 witnesses and Babylon is the great and a few more 


 

[journeyman]

Marty,
I think you hit it on the nail head.
Jesus is God and it is about what he did. That's the key. He protects us from coming persecution. The new covenant reveals the old,

others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection Heb.11:35

in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. Rom.8:37

Jesus's resurrection proves this. The coming war, the man of sin, they been unmasked.

[mfox]

Nov 6, 2019 14:03:48 GMT journeyman said:

Marty,
I think you hit it on the nail head.
Jesus is God and it is about what he did. That's the key. He protects us from coming persecution. The new covenant reveals the old,

others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection Heb.11:35

in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. Rom.8:37

Jesus's resurrection proves this. The coming war, the man of sin, they been unmasked.

Thanks Jorneyman  

[Deleted]

In my humble opinion, the Book of Revelation is, in part, a testimony to what Jesus did in the past and His opinion on what the situation was like in the then-current world while John was in exile. I think that a far more important part of it is what He will do in the future. Or course, when Israel was reborn back in 1948, that was a key moment in Biblical prophecy. That gives us hope for sure. I also think that there have been periods of time throughout history where people have said "Well, it can't get any worse than this. The end of the world has to happen soon."

But it always gets worse. In fact, one of the funniest cartoons I ever saw on this "end of the world" topic happened way back in the early sixties. Picture an old hermit geezer with his three foot long beard and hair that hasn't been cut for at least twenty years and his ever present sandwich board sign covering what remains of his raggy clothes. On the board is written

THE WORLD ENDS

OCT 17

NOV 4

DEC18

JAN2

MAR30

APR3

JUN27

AUGUST31

You have to admire the old boy's faith. The funny thing about the board is that one of these days, he will be right - but will it be on his sandwich board? Unlikely. Will he still be around to witness it? Also unlikely.

[mfox]

Dec 3, 2019 19:54:51 GMT @gator said:

In my humble opinion, the Book of Revelation is, in part, a testimony to what Jesus did in the past and His opinion on what the situation was like in the then-current world while John was in exile. I think that a far more important part of it is what He will do in the future. Or course, when Israel was reborn back in 1948, that was a key moment in Biblical prophecy. That gives us hope for sure. I also think that there have been periods of time throughout history where people have said "Well, it can't get any worse than this. The end of the world has to happen soon."

But it always gets worse. In fact, one of the funniest cartoons I ever saw on this "end of the world" topic happened way back in the early sixties. Picture an old hermit geezer with his three foot long beard and hair that hasn't been cut for at least twenty years and his ever present sandwich board sign covering what remains of his raggy clothes. On the board is written

THE WORLD ENDS

OCT 17

NOV 4

DEC18

JAN2

MAR30

APR3

JUN27

AUGUST31

You have to admire the old boy's faith. The funny thing about the board is that one of these days, he will be right - but will it be on his sandwich board? Unlikely. Will he still be around to witness it? Also unlikely.

Yes it is mostly in the past 

[ted]

Dec 4, 2019 2:57:15 GMT mfox said:

Dec 3, 2019 19:54:51 GMT @gator said:

In my humble opinion, the Book of Revelation is, in part, a testimony to what Jesus did in the past and His opinion on what the situation was like in the then-current world while John was in exile. I think that a far more important part of it is what He will do in the future. Or course, when Israel was reborn back in 1948, that was a key moment in Biblical prophecy. That gives us hope for sure. I also think that there have been periods of time throughout history where people have said "Well, it can't get any worse than this. The end of the world has to happen soon."

But it always gets worse. In fact, one of the funniest cartoons I ever saw on this "end of the world" topic happened way back in the early sixties. Picture an old hermit geezer with his three foot long beard and hair that hasn't been cut for at least twenty years and his ever present sandwich board sign covering what remains of his raggy clothes. On the board is written

THE WORLD ENDS

OCT 17

NOV 4

DEC18

JAN2

MAR30

APR3

JUN27

AUGUST31

You have to admire the old boy's faith. The funny thing about the board is that one of these days, he will be right - but will it be on his sandwich board? Unlikely. Will he still be around to witness it? Also unlikely.

Yes it is mostly in the past 

It is my understanding that John's revelation was a prophecy of the present.    It describes what is at time of John (roughly 70 AD, is when john wrote it) up to the second coming of Christ.  Know one but God alone know's when the latter point will be.  In the first few chapters visions are given to John from Jesus with messages to deliver to several churches listed by name.  They are both commended for things they are doing well and cautioned in areas where they fall short.  This is important in that the messages describe traits  exist within the Church today and not just these particular churches named.

These are ideas were presented in the following series of Homilies given in Greece in the 1970-80s and then later translated into english. I am in the second volume now and I can't recommend this book enough. It is truly beautiful linking every line in revelation back to scripture in order to understand the meaning.  If you can find a copy of the forward; it does an excellent job discussing why Revelation is so often misinterpreted and what sources he relied upon in his homilies.

The following is a review on the first volume which I derive the above understanding.  
Homilies on the Book of Revelation (Vol. 1) by Archimandrite Athanasius: I only have a few more pages to go in this book and I have high praise for it. It is jam-packed with information. It not only offers incredible insight into the Book of the Revelation, but gives detailed accounts of the geographical and social histories of the seven churches to whom Christ has St. John the Theologian address an epistle. Translated by Costas Zalalas, this book should be read by all Orthodox Christians, not merely those who are inclined toward reading commentaries on Scripture. It is very informative and yet also manages to challenge the reader to become a more authentic Christian.

[foxjj]

Yes Ted you are right when you state that much of Revelation is misunderstood. I would recommend that you read the four part posts titled Revelation and History on page 2 of this board by mfox.

[Deleted]

I must confess that I am one of these oddball guys who believes that there are a few ( possibly up to many ) verses in the Bible that were written for the audience of the day but they also have a meaning for today and beyond. I believe this is especially true for the Book of Daniel and for the Revelation. As an aside, it was recommended to me one time by our then pastor (RIP) that if one was reading Daniel in one hand, then Revelation should be in the other hand - and vice versa. And there are times when that seems to be good advice.

And just to ramble a bit more, Dr. David Jeremiah says in one of his DVD presentations that the Book of Daniel is so absolutely accurate in its predictions, that some of the more liberal scholars have said that it couldn't have been prophecy. They tried to sneak the idea in that some future historian actually added it to the book of Daniel and tried to pass it off as prophecy when in fact (?) it was history. Of course, this idea was quickly snuffed out because the genius is in the details. Some of the details were that Daniel had mentioned a few things that only someone present in the King's Court at the time would have been privy to. It is unlikely that historians would have had access to these details.

[mfox]

Dec 5, 2019 2:41:21 GMT @gator said:

I must confess that I am one of these oddball guys who believes that there are a few ( possibly up to many ) verses in the Bible that were written for the audience of the day but they also have a meaning for today and beyond. I believe this is especially true for the Book of Daniel and for the Revelation. As an aside, it was recommended to me one time by our then pastor (RIP) that if one was reading Daniel in one hand, then Revelation should be in the other hand - and vice versa. And there are times when that seems to be good advice.

And just to ramble a bit more, Dr. David Jeremiah says in one of his DVD presentations that the Book of Daniel is so absolutely accurate in its predictions, that some of the more liberal scholars have said that it couldn't have been prophecy. They tried to sneak the idea in that some future historian actually added it to the book of Daniel and tried to pass it off as prophecy when in fact (?) it was history. Of course, this idea was quickly snuffed out because the genius is in the details. Some of the details were that Daniel had mentioned a few things that only someone present in the King's Court at the time would have been privy to. It is unlikely that historians would have had access to these details.

Yes I have heard that and the book of Daniel too

i don’t believe that revelation an Daniel have anything to do with each other they are separate times of prophecy 

[randy]

Dec 5, 2019 2:41:21 GMT @gator said:

I must confess that I am one of these oddball guys who believes that there are a few ( possibly up to many ) verses in the Bible that were written for the audience of the day but they also have a meaning for today and beyond. I believe this is especially true for the Book of Daniel and for the Revelation. As an aside, it was recommended to me one time by our then pastor (RIP) that if one was reading Daniel in one hand, then Revelation should be in the other hand - and vice versa. And there are times when that seems to be good advice.

And just to ramble a bit more, Dr. David Jeremiah says in one of his DVD presentations that the Book of Daniel is so absolutely accurate in its predictions, that some of the more liberal scholars have said that it couldn't have been prophecy. They tried to sneak the idea in that some future historian actually added it to the book of Daniel and tried to pass it off as prophecy when in fact (?) it was history. Of course, this idea was quickly snuffed out because the genius is in the details. Some of the details were that Daniel had mentioned a few things that only someone present in the King's Court at the time would have been privy to. It is unlikely that historians would have had access to these details.

I also am a futurist interpreter of Revelation, and find Revelation and Daniel very much interlinked. Though much of Revelation is rooted in history, I think the focus of the visions is on the end of the age, involving only a brief period of time. This period lasts for 3.5 years, during which the Antichrist will reign.

The purpose of the book, however, is not strictly speculative and forward-looking. Rather, it was to give the Church in the present age a proper perspective so that our negative experiences can be explained and so that we are encouraged to prevail in our testimony. We are to expect a certain degree of suffering in the present age as our lot, while we look forward to a sure reward for faithful living in Christ.

[ted]

Dec 5, 2019 6:09:07 GMT randy said:

Dec 5, 2019 2:41:21 GMT @gator said:

I must confess that I am one of these oddball guys who believes that there are a few ( possibly up to many ) verses in the Bible that were written for the audience of the day but they also have a meaning for today and beyond. I believe this is especially true for the Book of Daniel and for the Revelation. As an aside, it was recommended to me one time by our then pastor (RIP) that if one was reading Daniel in one hand, then Revelation should be in the other hand - and vice versa. And there are times when that seems to be good advice.

And just to ramble a bit more, Dr. David Jeremiah says in one of his DVD presentations that the Book of Daniel is so absolutely accurate in its predictions, that some of the more liberal scholars have said that it couldn't have been prophecy. They tried to sneak the idea in that some future historian actually added it to the book of Daniel and tried to pass it off as prophecy when in fact (?) it was history. Of course, this idea was quickly snuffed out because the genius is in the details. Some of the details were that Daniel had mentioned a few things that only someone present in the King's Court at the time would have been privy to. It is unlikely that historians would have had access to these details.

I also am a futurist interpreter of Revelation, and find Revelation and Daniel very much interlinked. Though much of Revelation is rooted in history, I think the focus of the visions is on the end of the age, involving only a brief period of time. This period lasts for 3.5 years, during which the Antichrist will reign.

The purpose of the book, however, is not strictly speculative and forward-looking. Rather, it was to give the Church in the present age a proper perspective so that our negative experiences can be explained and so that we are encouraged to prevail in our testimony. We are to expect a certain degree of suffering in the present age as our lot, while we look forward to a sure reward for faithful living in Christ.

I very much agree with your the last part.  John's prophecy is to give to the church a guideline from that point in time with Christ fully revealed until His second coming.  So in our current time it is a prophecy of the past, present, and future all at the same time.  Of course the rest of scripture also provides a guideline for our lives in Christ but Revelation goes further tearing back the veil so that humanity may experience a glimpse into the world that is to come (ie. heaven). 

Inevitably we all experience suffering in life, yet God gifts this to us individually in a way that can move us ever closer to Him if we allow it do so in our hearts.  There is a peacefulness that is unbelievable when one has Christ within.  Suffering becomes joy, for nothing in this world can take away from the joy of being God's servant in Christ. Suffering is just a reminder of the chains to which we were and are bound in the physical realm.  No matter how much pain I experience, I know that God is working His plan for me and I accept His blessing as it is.  For God is truly great and Christ is my Lord and savior.