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Post by randy on Jul 7, 2021 16:29:57 GMT
I'm Postrib and also believe in the future salvation of national Israel. I think it's important to state this because many Postribs reject Israel in prophecy altogether, or reinterpret it to apply to the international Church.
Let me say, first of all, that there is a difference between the biblical view of national salvation and the biblical view of individual salvation. National salvation has more to do with the survival of the entire society rather than with spiritual salvation.
But these things are obviously tied together. God said that without spirituality and without obedience, a nation will not be saved. It will ultimately perish or suffer significant judgment.
Many get confused about this because they think that saving a society is not important in relation to saving an individual. Actually, both are important to God--both nations and individuals. The nation protects the individual, and thus provides a healthy spiritual climate for the individual if the nation is itself generally spiritual, or tolerant of spirituality.
The problem with Postribs who deny the place of national Israel in prophecy is that God did indeed promise this to Abraham. And God doesn't break His promises. Though the Early Church gave up hope in Israel's future salvation because Israel didn't repent, this does not mean that after many generations God cannot begin again with Israel, and ultimately refine her through the fires of His judgment.
So I do believe in Israel's future salvation, and also in the salvation of other nations--primarily Christian nations. Like Israel, many Christian nations have fallen on hard times, and have come under divine punishment. If Israel can be saved, so can these former Christian nations.
So where in the Bible do we see the salvation of Christian nations? We don't, because when the Bible was written Christian nations did not yet exist. And yet God promised them to Abraham. He was promised he would become father of a multitude of nations.
The problem I see with Pretribs and their Dispensationalism is that not only are they wrong about Pretrib itself, but also wrong to emphasize Israel's salvation through the lens of OT realities. They see Israel as returning to the Law, and they see Israel as still an exclusive nation in a sea of pagan nations.
That reality has changed, although some of it remains true. Whereas the nations ultimately capitulate to paganism it is not true that other nations did not become nations of God. Many nations have become Christian nations. They just ultimately fall, as Israel did. All nations do, ultimately, turn against Israel.
So the idea is to recognize that Israel is no longer alone in prophecy, and the future will involve not just Israel's recovery, but also the recovery of many other nations, formerly of faith. And most certainly, there will be no return to the Law. If all nations oppose Israel, they also oppose the idea of "Christian nations." They will stand not in opposition to the practice of the Law of Moses, but rather, in opposition to Christ and to those promised to Christ.
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Post by foxjj on Jul 7, 2021 22:34:04 GMT
Interesting post Randy. I personally do not fall into pretrib nor postrib as I see relevant points on both sides and am not allowing myself to be locked into either side.
You raise interesting points that I would appreciate more information on such as: “Let me say, first of all, that there is a difference between the biblical view of national salvation and the biblical view of individual salvation. National salvation has more to do with the survival of the entire society rather than with spiritual salvation.” My question is are you saying that national salvation consists of national security and absolutely nothing to do with Biblical Salvation?
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Post by randy on Jul 9, 2021 5:12:15 GMT
Interesting post Randy. I personally do not fall into pretrib nor postrib as I see relevant points on both sides and am not allowing myself to be locked into either side. You raise interesting points that I would appreciate more information on such as: “Let me say, first of all, that there is a difference between the biblical view of national salvation and the biblical view of individual salvation. National salvation has more to do with the survival of the entire society rather than with spiritual salvation.” My question is are you saying that national salvation consists of national security and absolutely nothing to do with Biblical Salvation? No, I take Israel as the model nation. God told them they would be blessed, survive, and thrive if they obey God's word. They would be cursed, fall, and suffer if they disobeyed His word. The same is true in the NT, when entire nations have made covenant with Christ to embrace Christianity for their people. When they actually obey Christ's teachings they would be blessed and prevail. When they failed to live up to Christian standards, they would be cursed, and suffer loss. It really is no different from OT to NT--God is the same. Nations are important as a social environment for people. And thus, God is concerned about the nation, as well as the individual. He wants the individual to be saved, and He'd love for every individual in the nation to be saved. But I think it's unrealistic to think every individual in a nation will be saved. So I think God's intention with Israel and with nations has been to create societies who adopt Christianity as their religion, hoping most of the people will be obedient to Christ's teachings. Obviously, we know from history that all Christian nations ultimately fail. But how much good has been done when a nation becomes Christian and actually succeeds in creating a legitimate Christian society for a time? I've seen Christian nations, like Great Britain, adopt Christianity, fall, and then experience spiritual revival, becoming one of the great nations in history. Who can say that Christianity in the nation did not help it succeed?
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Post by foxjj on Jul 9, 2021 7:55:13 GMT
Interesting answer Randy. So if Israel is the example and Israel failed does that not prove that a nation cannot be saved? I do not know of any nations making a covenant with Christ to embrace Christianity as you wrote. Nations are made up of people and people embrace Christ making them Christian. Because individual Christians live in a nation dose not make that nation a Christian nation. God is not concerned about nations as much as He is concerned about people as The Gospel teaches: “The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:9-13 ESV) As regarding Great Britain, if anyone truly knows it’s history they know that it was most assuredly not Christianity that made it great, but it’s army and navy. It used its laws to put down its working class citizens keeping them in poverty. Which it also did to the nations that it conquered. Remember it was also Great Britain that became rich from slavery, including bringing African slaves to America. Notwithstanding, individual Christian people from England did help spread the Gospel in many parts of the world.
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Post by randy on Jul 10, 2021 3:49:59 GMT
Interesting answer Randy. So if Israel is the example and Israel failed does that not prove that a nation cannot be saved? I do not know of any nations making a covenant with Christ to embrace Christianity as you wrote. Nations are made up of people and people embrace Christ making them Christian. Because individual Christians live in a nation dose not make that nation a Christian nation. God is not concerned about nations as much as He is concerned about people as The Gospel teaches: “The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:9-13 ESV) As regarding Great Britain, if anyone truly knows it’s history they know that it was most assuredly not Christianity that made it great, but it’s army and navy. It used its laws to put down its working class citizens keeping them in poverty. Which it also did to the nations that it conquered. Remember it was also Great Britain that became rich from slavery, including bringing African slaves to America. Notwithstanding, individual Christian people from England did help spread the Gospel in many parts of the world. Yes, as I said, a Christian nation is a Christian nation by virtue of a professing majority of Christians who then elect a government that is Christian to represent them. There is no requirement that every individual in a Christian nation be truly saved for it to be called a "Christian nation." A nation doesn't get "saved" in the born again sense. A nation gets saved by pleasing God generally in the way its affairs are handled, relatively speaking, and then God delivers the nation from serious troubles. That's how a nation gets saved, from wars, from epidemics, from natural disasters, etc. The nation, as a whole, does not get "born again." Every individual in the nation doesn't ever get "born again." Israel's failure does not mean that it wasn't a nation of God for a time. In Hosea we read that God at one time considered Israel "His People," whereas when they went apostate He considered them "Not My People." So a Christian nation can exist, can then backslide, and ultimately apostacize from the Christian faith. Yes, Christian nations, because of the mix in the practice of Christianity do bad things. The nation, not being 100% Christian in practice and in terms of being "born again" will certainly be full of bad things, as well. That doesn't acrue to the whole nation, but only to those elements within the nation pushing for evil to be done. Slavery is a blight upon a Christian nation. But God notes the level of ignorance in the Christian people and may or may not be tolerant, depending on the circumstances. After all, slavery was also in the Bible. It is the product of military conquest, but certainly never intended to be generational in scope. So, to judge an entire nation by some of its sins is besides the point. Is there enough Christianity there to bless the nation? Yes, God blessed Great Britain mightily, and also allowed her to suffer disciplines. I see this as no different than the way God treated Israel. We don't see much on God's covenant with nations in the Bible because it was written before there were Christian nations. But Christian nations is in the encyclopedia, and so we must deal with them as a reality, and not as a theological blunder. God did anticipate there being not just Israel but many nations. We see that in Gen 17, where God promised Abraham both a biological posterity and a multitude of nations, sharing his faith. We also read this from Jesus, when he predicted Israel's national calling would be suspended, and passed on to another nation, referring to the Roman Empire. Matt 21.43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."And here Paul states that the promise to Abraham is fulfilled in Christian nations, even though Paul had not yet seen the international Gospel result in Christian nations. Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”I know that Israel's covenant with God is laid out explicitly in Scriptures so that we know what took place. But I would assume that the same reality takes place when Christian peoples adopt Christian governments for their nations. God doesn't change, and He wants all people to be Christian. I must assume that He wants not just individuals to be Christian, but also nations to be Christian. Again, nations don't get saved like individuals do. They get spared judgments for acting, as a people, in line with Christian practice. God blesses obedience, just as He did for Israel in the OT era.
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Post by foxjj on Jul 11, 2021 7:28:34 GMT
Randy, when the Scripture speaks of nations it is not always referring to a country, but sometimes it means people’s, which was the intent of Paul in Galatians where you wrote: “And here Paul states that the promise to Abraham is fulfilled in Christian nations, even though Paul had not yet seen the international Gospel result in Christian nations.
Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
When we read the portion in context we see that Paul is referring to people who are of faith: “7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.” (Galatians 3:7-9 (ESV)
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Post by randy on Jul 13, 2021 4:55:23 GMT
Randy, when the Scripture speaks of nations it is not always referring to a country, but sometimes it means people’s, which was the intent of Paul in Galatians where you wrote: “And here Paul states that the promise to Abraham is fulfilled in Christian nations, even though Paul had not yet seen the international Gospel result in Christian nations. Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” When we read the portion in context we see that Paul is referring to people who are of faith: “7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.” (Galatians 3:7-9 (ESV) Yes, Paul was referring to people of faith--specifically, to peoples of faith, ie nations of faith. There is no getting around the fact that "nations" here refers to a plurality of nations. Israel is the prototype, and Christian nations would be the fulfillment of Abraham's hope of inheriting Gentile peoples. I suppose the question, then, would be: do "peoples" include their government, as well? Or, are we just talking about saving *ethnicities?* I personally believe that government is included, because that is how a society of people are formed. If they are to be a people of faith, it would have to include their government, or their constitution--the way they organize their society, including laws. I do recognize, however, that God diminished the value of a highly centralized and bureaucratic government. In terms of my country, the U.S., He would be more in favor of conservatism. If, however, we are to look at "peoples" as "groups of people," and use Israel as a prototype, we are not just talking about saving ethnicities, but more, societies, along with the way they organize it, including their government, their laws, and their cultural values. That's how God treated Israel, and so, I would assume that's what He was promising Abraham with respect to the "nations," or "peoples." If only an ethnicity was in view, and fulfilled the concept of "nations," then why were 12 tribes designed to be united into a single nation? Each tribe carried the DNA of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but organization was destined by God to transcend the differences in the tribes. Tribal barriers had to be crossed, and religious values had to supersede cultural values established in different places, to unite people under a single religious standard. I think the message here is, unless there is some form of social base for a nation, people tend to scatter, and any religious consensus tends to get lost. God wants "nations" because they enable a disparate people to coalesce around a central religious ethic. Religious law can be imposed, but our internal religious values cannot be imposed. So only individuals get saved. Nations pass laws to protect society.
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