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Post by mfox on Nov 1, 2022 23:12:21 GMT
Revelation 20:4 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.
Here below are the three texts.
Ephesians 2:4-6 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.
Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.
Romans 5:17 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.
All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.
Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".
Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.
But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.
Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.
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Post by randy on Dec 10, 2022 21:15:27 GMT
Revelation 20:4 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.
Here below are the three texts.
Ephesians 2:4-6 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.
Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.
Romans 5:17 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.
All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.
Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".
Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.
But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.
Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan. Hi Marty: Though we differ on our beliefs about the Millennium you make some real good points here. I do agree that there is a spiritual sense of the Kingdom existing in our midst presently, and in some sense we are reigning over our carnal natures and in terms of fulfilling our calling from the Lord. Boy things have been tough on another forum on the subject, though! Sometimes I feel that people are willing to kill for their doctrines! I can understand it to some degree, though, because we're talking about God's Word, and that's obviously critical to get right. Thanks, brother!
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Post by mfox on Dec 11, 2022 5:44:00 GMT
Revelation 20:4 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.
Here below are the three texts.
Ephesians 2:4-6 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.
Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.
Romans 5:17 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.
All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.
Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".
Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.
But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.
Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan. Hi Marty: Though we differ on our beliefs about the Millennium you make some real good points here. I do agree that there is a spiritual sense of the Kingdom existing in our midst presently, and in some sense we are reigning over our carnal natures and in terms of fulfilling our calling from the Lord. Boy things have been tough on another forum on the subject, though! Sometimes I feel that people are willing to kill for their doctrines! I can understand it to some degree, though, because we're talking about God's Word, and that's obviously critical to get right. Thanks, brother! Thanks Randy and yes it can be really tough lol
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Post by princess on Dec 20, 2022 2:53:22 GMT
I probably would never have caught this myself but you did and nailed it Marty!
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Post by randy on Dec 20, 2022 8:41:20 GMT
I did a study back in the 80s that is premised on my belief in Premillennialism. I asked, What is the difference between the activity of God's Kingdom now, as opposed to God's eternal Kingdom in the future?
At the time, a brother had been promoting some kind of triumphalism, an aggressive imposition of the Kingdom by force, which was based on a false translation of the passage, "the Kingdom suffers violence." He was reading this, "the Kingdom forcefully advances," which is something George E. Ladd promoted. I liked Ladd a lot, but I didn't agree with this translation.
I don't see the Kingdom as "forcefully advancing," even though it is, in some sense, advancing and progressing. The Kingdom is expanding when the Gospel reaches out to the world, and grows in every nation. But it is not triumphant over the power of Satan, which is able to defeat it in some respects.
So I realized that even in the life of the King, Jesus, the Kingdom suffered violence. He was opposed, and eventually killed. That wasn't a triumph--it was a defeat.
However, that defeat turned into victory when Christ rose from the dead. And it is the same for us. In the present age we are able to accomplish our missions, we're able to live in righteousness, and we're able to perform the signs of a valid ministry.
At the same time, we can't avoid suffering opposition and persecution, just like Jesus did. And so, the life of the Kingdom of God in the present age is different than it will be in the future age.
Whether you're Premill or Amill, these differences should be noted. Some believe Satan is presently bound, and some believe he is still free to roam. Regardless, we all face the same experience in this life, and it pays not to be too idealistic. Faith Preachers are going to have it the toughest when all of a sudden their "faith" doesn't work in the face of opposition and persecution, and sometimes even martyrdom.
We may be able to cast demons out when performing our ministry. But we can't cast Satan out of the world. Neither can we convert the world to Christianity apart from the coming of Christ.
Anything the Church has done up to now is simply bring the message to the world, with recognition from the world that they have received that message. But they are rejecting it now, and there's little we can do to stem the tide of Antichristianity.
I would add that there's other things we can't yet do in this present age. We can't extract the Sin Nature from ourselves, which is a *spiritual* inheritance from our parents and forebears. And we can't, therefore, relieve ourselves of the need to die. We may perhaps perform a resurrection by the power of God, but those raised up and we ourselves will still have to die in our mortal bodies.
At least, that's what I think. Any comments?
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Post by mfox on Dec 20, 2022 15:40:46 GMT
I probably would never have caught this myself but you did and nailed it Marty! Thanks princess
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