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Post by randy on Sept 22, 2022 5:11:05 GMT
I believe that, for whatever reason, God has called certain nations to be "nations of God." Israel was called to be a "nation of God." And now there has also been many "nations of God," since there have been many Christian nations.
It is often argued with me that Christian nations is an invalid designation because although to the non-Christian world these nations may be called "Christian nations," to many evangelical Christians these nations are too spiritually impoverished to be properly called "Christian nations."
But whatever. Israel was called to be a nation of God, and sometimes lived up to it, such as when they obeyed God and went in and conquered the Promised Land.
Of course, everything Israel did was flawed. Even in conquering Canaan, they failed in the matter of Ai, and they failed to conquer some of the pagan inhabitants. But generally, they succeeded, as a nation, in conquering the land for God and established the Law of Moses as the preeminent standard for the nation. Though there were rebellions, the times of the judges and the times of the kings saw a regular return to God at times even if in the end sin and apostasy seemed to grab hold of the vast majority in the nation.
So I believe not just individuals were called to be people of God, but also entire nations were called to be nations of God. Either way, nations and individuals can fall from their calling and fail God and themselves. God is able to restore them to their calling, if they only repent and confess their sins, and turn from their wicked ways.
Christian nations in Europe, America, and around the world are today failing, just as ancient Israel failed. We may not be able to achieve restoration by political means. And it may even be too late to bring about lasting national changes through spiritual revivals. But we still can, as individuals succeed as individuals for God. Our churches can succeed as churches of God. Let us hope so!
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Post by foxjj on Sept 23, 2022 5:18:15 GMT
Randy, please explain what, in your estimation, makes a “nation of God.”
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Post by randy on Oct 13, 2022 4:04:08 GMT
Randy, please explain what, in your estimation, makes a “nation of God.” A nation that adopts a constitution, or the like, in which a single religion is embraced, marks that nation as a kind of theocracy. It is assumed that the moral system embraced by that God is to become the rule for all of the people of that state. A Christian nation is a nation that is Christian by constitutional acceptance. A nation of God is the same. It is often assumed that a nation that does not consistently follow the God of their choice cannot be considered a "nation of God." However, that is exactly the blueprint God followed when He called Israel to be a "nation of God." He knew they would fail. He knew that sometimes they would not follow through. And yet He called them to be that thing, and that's what they were.
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Post by foxjj on Oct 13, 2022 5:25:31 GMT
I think that you will find Israel was a nation under God, not a nation of God. Meaning that everyone in the nation was subject to the rule of the covenant of Yahweh. No worship of another god was tolerated. Today we live in the period of Grace which allows people to make a personal decision to follow Jesus of their own free will. Consequently each nation is made up of believers and nonbelievers. Most western nations have adapted Biblical principles in the past but many of those principles have changed. However, adapting Biblical principles does not make for a nation of God, although we may wish that our nation was such a nation. The only nations of god today are Islamic wherein no other religion is tolerated.
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Post by randy on Oct 16, 2022 16:53:07 GMT
Yes, I've had this disagreement with many brothers throughout the years. I don't believe God changed from OT to NT, nor do I believe this supposed "Age of Grace" was a better system of tolerance.
I believe God showed His hand when He called and chose Israel to be a theocracy. That was His plan and His model for all nations, though the Law obviously was intended to progress into the Christian system of living for all nations.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this.
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Post by foxjj on Oct 16, 2022 19:48:24 GMT
Just as a matter of dialogue; Although God choice Israel to be a nation under Him, there is on evidence that He desired any other nation to follow suit. As for the period of Grace. Grace is only granted to individuals not nationals.
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Post by randy on Oct 16, 2022 20:03:50 GMT
Just as a matter of dialogue; Although God choice Israel to be a nation under Him, there is on evidence that He desired any other nation to follow suit. As for the period of Grace. Grace is only granted to individuals not nationals. Yea, it's a reasonably good subject. I differ with some real good people on it. I've stood somewhat alone on it for many, many years--the product of intense, personal study back in the 70s. I couldn't come up with any other conclusion. The trouble is, it's fraught with all kinds of misnomers and prejudices. It's very difficult to discuss without ending up down some kind of strange rabbit hole. I don't think there's a political system in existence that can survive long-term without losing its spirituality, its morality, its justice. Every system is subject to human degradation, the erosion of values over time. So how valuable is it to promote something that doesn't last? I personally aim for the ideal, but expect that societies will choose based on the spiritual condition of the people. They will get leaders they deserve. The evidence I have that God wanted nations to follow suit after Israel's theocracy is, of course, debatable. And I'm not going to get emotional if someone feels my arguments are weak. But here they are. We are told that Israel was made to be a model for the Church. If Israel was called to be a nation of God, then Christian societies are also called to be nations of God. Historically, they were. Secondly, we're told that God doesn't change. If His ideals for a nation in the OT were represented by Israel's theocratic system, then that hasn't changed for Christian nations. Thirdly, Jesus said he was taking the Kingdom of God, ie the theocracy, from Israel, and giving it to another nation, which I believe ultimately was Roman Civilization, or the Christian Roman State. From there, Christian states have evolved all over Europe and the world. Did these systems corrupt? Yes--just like Israel's system went corrupt, even though God called for it to start with. There has to be a system by which governments rule in a way that pleases God. That isn't polytheism or religious pluralism. And it isn't a corrupt form of Christianity. It is a Christian State operating as it should with a dominant spirituality among the people. But how long does this last? History tells us. Again, we can agree to disagree. I'm not upset either way.
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Post by foxjj on Oct 17, 2022 7:01:58 GMT
First question Where are we told that Israel was a model for the church?
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Post by randy on Oct 17, 2022 14:34:41 GMT
First question Where are we told that Israel was a model for the church? 1 Cor 10.For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.The promises God gave Abraham concerned *nations.* In the same way He promised Abraham a natural endowment He promised a posterity based on faith apart from his own physical inheritance. For this reason Paul argues in Rom 9-11 that nations, though they have different time frames, have the same ultimate destiny if they are called to faith. If Gentile nations are coming into faith, then Israel, who has lost their faith, is destined to come back to faith. Of course, when the NT was written, the Gospel had only begun to go out into Gentile nations. There could not have yet been a "Christian nation." But that happened in the Roman Empire under Theodosius. And the traditional model of Christian nationhood continued thereafter, and engulfed all of Europe. This is historic fact.
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Post by randy on Oct 17, 2022 14:39:27 GMT
As I've been arguing regularly with those who have a Replacement Theology, there are two definitions of "Christian" and "Christian nation." The true Christian is commmonly defined as someone saved in eternity, as opposed to those who profess faith and then commit apostasy or fail to live up to its standards.
The Christian nation is viewed as illegitimate due to its transitory nature. All Christian nations ultimately fail as Christian nations, just as Israel failed in the end to live as a nation of God.
But my claim is that God called for this interim step towards eternal salvation as a necessary step to get there. In order to achieve lasting Christians it was necessary to have nominal Christians and Christian nations in order to select out individuals who actually achieve eternal life. To do otherwise would be to set individuals up for failure in pagan nations where they are persecuted out of existence.
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Post by foxjj on Oct 18, 2022 5:42:47 GMT
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this subject Randy. As you stated history has proved that all nations who claimed to be Christian nations have failed miserably. Genuine Christians are individual believers, not national believers. Individual people will stand before The Throne, not nations.
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