|
Post by foxjj on Dec 4, 2021 21:19:42 GMT
Yes indeed we do share the same goal
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Dec 4, 2021 21:37:58 GMT
Have you ever wondered what it would have been like to have been there when Peter spoke at Pentecost? Following is an extract from a story that I wrote some time ago. The story concerned Markus, a physician with the Roman army during the reign of Emperor Tiberius, who wrote letters to his sister in Rome about his experiences in Palestinian. He had befriended a merchant who told him about Jesus from Nazareth.
“Some weeks after the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth, his followers created a commotion in the city of Jerusalem. During this time I was with the Legion in Caesarea however, the merchant Nathan was in Jerusalem that day, and later informed me of what had transpired.
Many people crowded Jerusalem because of a feast, when a follower of Jesus - Simon Peter by name - boldly stood and spoke of The Nazarene. Nathan said a phenomenon occurred in the city of Jerusalem on that day when the listeners heard Simon Peter, along with the other disciple's of Jesus speak to the multitude in their own various native tongues. The disciple's told of the wonders of God, and their belief in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. Many of these disciples are known to make their living by fishing on the lake of Galilee, which would indicate they did not receive a very extensive education. The ancient language of the Jews is Hebrew, which is the language of their religious scrolls and is used in Temple worship. In general, the language of the common people is Aramaic. The highborn, and merchants also speak Greek, which is the language Nathan and I use to converse. Nathan said this phenomenon was the power of God working a miracle in order that Jews from other nations would hear the message about Jesus - the Jewish Messiah.
Simon Peter spoke of how the Jewish people had handed Jesus over to the Romans to be executed. Nathan was surprised to hear him say that all of this was done with the fore-knowledge of God. He went on to quote the writings of the Jewish king David wherein it was foretold their God would not allow Messiah to remain in the grave. Peter then said “This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.” Nathan told me he was moved in his heart at these words. Voices from the multitude called out “What shall we do?” Then Simon Peter said to them “repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the remission of sins." Thousands believed the preaching, and my acquaintance Nathan was among them. From that day their lives were not the same. Believing Jesus was the Messiah, or as we would say, the Christ, they repented of their sins and were baptized. Nathan said that the new believers found peace with their God and a greater meaning for their lives.”
|
|
|
Post by princess on Dec 5, 2021 1:17:39 GMT
If the church before the cross were not indwelt and saved believers who followed a meaningless mystery religion then why even open up the old testament? That's actually a very good question, and one that I'm prepared to answer. I was just reading 1 Peter 1. 1 Peter 1.18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.As you can see, Peter himself declared that the tradition of Law passed down from the OT saints was an "empty way of life." That is, it did not satisfy in the sense of providing what Israel had hoped for, namely Eternal Life. It was satisfying at the time in the sense that it temporarily covered for Israel's sins, and kept them in covenant relationship with God. And so, OT Israel did have the Spirit indwell them in a temporal sense. It's just that the Spirit could not legally indwell them *for eternity* until Christ had provided the legal fix that was needed. Seeing the transition from temporal fix to NT solution is important in understanding the centrality of Christ in our spiritual life. We don't follow imperfect priests in the OT, but only the sinless Christ, who is God's representative for us. Only he provides us with the proper example, from which we derive the spirituality needed to live like him. You read 'the empty way of life" and then attach it the law without any context to do so. If the old testament believers led an empty life then time to burn the book of psalms.... Is Peter writing about the law here also? Peter also says "As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. You know how the Spirit of God worked and functioned in believers over 2000 years ago? Legally indwell in people? So God is subservient to law? I am not getting it? Are Jewish people presenting a stumbling block to preach to the gentiles? Are they trying to get everyone to scarifice at the temple?
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 5, 2021 6:18:04 GMT
Have you ever wondered what it would have been like to have been there when Peter spoke at Pentecost? Following is an extract from a story that I wrote some time ago. The story concerned Markus, a physician with the Roman army during the reign of Emperor Tiberius, who wrote letters to his sister in Rome about his experiences in Palestinian. He had befriended a merchant who told him about Jesus from Nazareth. “Some weeks after the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth, his followers created a commotion in the city of Jerusalem. During this time I was with the Legion in Caesarea however, the merchant Nathan was in Jerusalem that day, and later informed me of what had transpired. Many people crowded Jerusalem because of a feast, when a follower of Jesus - Simon Peter by name - boldly stood and spoke of The Nazarene. Nathan said a phenomenon occurred in the city of Jerusalem on that day when the listeners heard Simon Peter, along with the other disciple's of Jesus speak to the multitude in their own various native tongues. The disciple's told of the wonders of God, and their belief in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. Many of these disciples are known to make their living by fishing on the lake of Galilee, which would indicate they did not receive a very extensive education. The ancient language of the Jews is Hebrew, which is the language of their religious scrolls and is used in Temple worship. In general, the language of the common people is Aramaic. The highborn, and merchants also speak Greek, which is the language Nathan and I use to converse. Nathan said this phenomenon was the power of God working a miracle in order that Jews from other nations would hear the message about Jesus - the Jewish Messiah. Simon Peter spoke of how the Jewish people had handed Jesus over to the Romans to be executed. Nathan was surprised to hear him say that all of this was done with the fore-knowledge of God. He went on to quote the writings of the Jewish king David wherein it was foretold their God would not allow Messiah to remain in the grave. Peter then said “This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.” Nathan told me he was moved in his heart at these words. Voices from the multitude called out “What shall we do?” Then Simon Peter said to them “repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the remission of sins." Thousands believed the preaching, and my acquaintance Nathan was among them. From that day their lives were not the same. Believing Jesus was the Messiah, or as we would say, the Christ, they repented of their sins and were baptized. Nathan said that the new believers found peace with their God and a greater meaning for their lives.” Brother, that just took me there! Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 5, 2021 6:29:35 GMT
That's actually a very good question, and one that I'm prepared to answer. I was just reading 1 Peter 1. 1 Peter 1.18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.As you can see, Peter himself declared that the tradition of Law passed down from the OT saints was an "empty way of life." That is, it did not satisfy in the sense of providing what Israel had hoped for, namely Eternal Life. It was satisfying at the time in the sense that it temporarily covered for Israel's sins, and kept them in covenant relationship with God. And so, OT Israel did have the Spirit indwell them in a temporal sense. It's just that the Spirit could not legally indwell them *for eternity* until Christ had provided the legal fix that was needed. Seeing the transition from temporal fix to NT solution is important in understanding the centrality of Christ in our spiritual life. We don't follow imperfect priests in the OT, but only the sinless Christ, who is God's representative for us. Only he provides us with the proper example, from which we derive the spirituality needed to live like him. You read 'the empty way of life" and then attach it the law without any context to do so. If the old testament believers led an empty life then time to burn the book of psalms.... Is Peter writing about the law here also? Peter also says "As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. You know how the Spirit of God worked and functioned in believers over 2000 years ago? Legally indwell in people? So God is subservient to law? I am not getting it? Are Jewish people presenting a stumbling block to preach to the gentiles? Are they trying to get everyone to scarifice at the temple? The "empty way of life" handed down from Jewish ancestors did involve the Law. But Peter most likely was reflecting on how the Jewish People had compromised the practice of the Law with paganism, or with artificiality, which is no better than paganism. After all, Jesus condemned Judaism the way it was being practiced in his own time by those who he called "hypocrites." But in my view, the Law was never designed to give Eternal Life anyway, but only to prepare the way for it. John the Baptist, under the Law, was called to "prepare the way" for the coming of Christ, who was the source of eternal life. So the Law, used properly, was very useful in preparing Israel for their understanding of who Christ was and what he came to do. All the animal sacrifices were designed to show Israel that they needed to be in covenant with God and needed to be forgiven for their sins. They were reminded that due to Adam's sin, any sin could keep them from obtaining Eternal Life. Thus, the Law could not achieve Eternal Life, though it was useful. It was useful in pointing us to Christ, who does give us Eternal Life. He alone is able to cover our every sin, simply by declaring it to be so. And this is based on our choice to embrace him as our way of life by signing up with him for a better covenant. Eternal Life, therefore, could never have been realized before he came and died for our sins. Eternal Life only comes when we embrace him alone as our Savior, and reject any other system or person, including the Law. To answer your question, yes, Jews reject Christ. And their system, though not racist, rejects the Gospel of Christ for the nations. Their own system of Law maintains an exclusivity not of race as much as of religion, just as Christianity does. But their covenant is wrong, and does not provide anything more than redemption under the Law. And as Christians we reject that as insufficient to give us Eternal Life. Animal sacrifices and the rituals presided over by flawed priests can no more bring Eternal Life than Eve, eating of the forbidden fruit, could avoid death.
|
|
|
Post by Naama on Dec 6, 2021 21:11:12 GMT
Or maybe he was writing the message to mom jrwish converts..
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Dec 7, 2021 8:17:21 GMT
Sorry Randy, but you are way off trying for prove that Peter was referring to the law in your quote. First Peter is addressed to God’s Elect who would be predominantly Gentile, but also some Jewish believers - facing persecution. Your quote of verse 18 is speaking to the empty way of life of unbelievers, who would have been pagan in that part of the world.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 7, 2021 19:30:10 GMT
Sorry Randy, but you are way off trying for prove that Peter was referring to the law in your quote. First Peter is addressed to God’s Elect who would be predominantly Gentile, but also some Jewish believers - facing persecution. Your quote of verse 18 is speaking to the empty way of life of unbelievers, who would have been pagan in that part of the world. For a more balanced perspective, than just challenging my own view as "way off," I recommend you read a few of the historic commentators on this specific portion of Scripture: biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/1-18.htmI think you'll find that instead of my being "way off," that I'm on point with some of them, whereas others may agree with you. At any rate, it doesn't help to refer to my view as "way off," since a number of very respected commentators and scholars would agree with me. But I accept that *you think* I'm "way off," and you have every right and duty to follow your own view on this. We walk by our own faith, and not by the faith of someone else. Thanks for your comments.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 7, 2021 19:35:41 GMT
Or maybe he was writing the message to mom jrwish converts.. There are a number of options on this. The commentators have a diversity of opinion on the matter. At any rate, I'm not sure it matters all that much. The way of life, or "conversation," passed down from the fathers, could refer to Jew or to Gentile, depending on how you look at it. Either way, there is something negative about the "way of life" handed down by our fathers. And we are to reject it, whether it is a corruption of the Jewish Law, or the pagan practices of the Gentiles. 1 Peter 1.18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors.Eph 4.22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires.Thanks for the conversation.
|
|
|
Post by Naama on Dec 7, 2021 20:12:58 GMT
Foxjj never denied the letter was written to jew or non jew but that the context was not the law of Moses.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 7, 2021 21:15:20 GMT
Foxjj never denied the letter was written to jew or non jew but that the context was not the law of Moses. Did you read the commentators that I mentioned? The Law of Moses, together with its corruption, is one of the legitimate options. It is not "far off" in terms of options entertained by historic scholars and commentators. I'm sure Foxjj is not aiming for sinless perfection, nor am I! This is just one comment from Ellicott. There are others like it.... But would the Apostle of the Circumcision, the supposed head of the legal party in the Church, dare to call Judaism a “vain conversation,” to stigmatize it (the single compound adjective in the Greek has a contemptuous ring) as “imposed by tradition of the fathers,” and to imply that it was like an Egyptian bondage? We have only to turn to Acts 15:10, and we find him uttering precisely the same sentiments, and calling Judaism a slavish “yoke,” which was not only so bad for Gentiles that to impose it upon them was to tempt God, but also was secretly or openly felt intolerable by himself, by all the Jews there present, and even by the fathers who had imposed it. Judaism itself, then, in the form it had then assumed, was one of the foes and oppressors from which Christ came to “ransom” and “save” His people. (See Notes on 1Peter 1:9-10, and comp. Acts 13:39.)I at the least would entertain the possibility that the corruption of the Law of Moses by Jews could be in the mind of Peter who may have been primarily addressing Jewish believers. However, the use of the Law, past its period of relevance, could also be viewed as a corruption, and now an "empty way of life" passed on by the Jewish fathers. 1 Peter 1.Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood... 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers.
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Dec 7, 2021 22:52:55 GMT
This is getting nowhere. Let’s see what we agree on. The Law was introduced by God consequently it cannot be wrong or bad. For generations it had a very important role in the spiritual life of the Hebrew and Jewish people’s lives. History has proved that the nation as a whole were not overall faithful therefore Yahweh promised to send an Anointed One who would fulfill the requirements of The Law, bringing Redemption to all who would accept His Sacrifice. In the sacrificial death of The Messiah the covenant was fulfilled and the Law and its sacrifices were no longer relevant. The destruction of the Temple brought a violent end to the sacrificial system for the Jewish people. When Jesus introduced The New Covenant at Passover He explained how His Sacrifice fulfilled the Law for all who would believe, be they Jew or Gentile. Through Jesus we Gentiles also have Hope for Eternal Life in the presence of our God.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 8, 2021 7:26:20 GMT
This is getting nowhere. Let’s see what we agree on. The Law was introduced by God consequently it cannot be wrong or bad. For generations it had a very important role in the spiritual life of the Hebrew and Jewish people’s lives. History has proved that the nation as a whole were not overall faithful therefore Yahweh promised to send an Anointed One who would fulfill the requirements of The Law, bringing Redemption to all who would accept His Sacrifice. In the sacrificial death of The Messiah the covenant was fulfilled and the Law and its sacrifices were no longer relevant. The destruction of the Temple brought a violent end to the sacrificial system for the Jewish people. When Jesus introduced The New Covenant at Passover He explained how His Sacrifice fulfilled the Law for all who would believe, be they Jew or Gentile. Through Jesus we Gentiles also have Hope for Eternal Life in the presence of our God. I should think we all agree on the Law of God as being good during its tenure. Once the covenant had been completed by Christ, who fulfilled its shadows, a new covenant was in place, displacing all worship under the Law. We may not be able to agree on what the "empty way of life, handed down by the Fathers," refers to. But we've given our opinions, and I imagine they're noted. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by Naama on Dec 10, 2021 23:20:48 GMT
Thank you for the balanced and wise response foxjj. The apostles wouid taught from the old not new testament for obvious reasons. Would Peter teach from the tanach to show pagans the God of the Torah played a cruel joke on the Jewish converts. Why go from paganism to that?
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 11, 2021 20:33:22 GMT
Thank you for the balanced and wise response foxjj. The apostles wouid taught from the old not new testament for obvious reasons. Would Peter teach from the tanach to show pagans the God of the Torah played a cruel joke on the Jewish converts. Why go from paganism to that? Again, Naama, I am not saying that the Law was evil. It merely had a time-stamp on it, and could instruct those in the NT to explain how the NT came about. The Tanach contains many things of eternal value, for both OT and NT. God was the same in the OT as He is in the NT. So His moral scheme in OT times obviously has value for NT times, as well. And what Israel went through, in their relationship with God, can instruct the Church of many nations in their relationship with God, as well.
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Dec 11, 2021 22:38:29 GMT
Must say that is a good short commentary on the Law Randy, so different from your previous comments regarding the Law.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 12, 2021 0:08:12 GMT
Must say that is a good short commentary on the Law Randy, so different from your previous comments regarding the Law. Nope--haven't changed my views on this for quite some time. What may have changed is how you understood my comments. I don't claim to be great with communication skills.
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Dec 12, 2021 8:15:36 GMT
I guess the more we communicate, the better we will understand each other.
|
|
|
Post by princess on Dec 13, 2021 15:14:20 GMT
That sums up the problem with writing in quick short bursts
I got the impression randy that you believed the ot believers had no relationship with God.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 15, 2021 22:16:12 GMT
That sums up the problem with writing in quick short bursts I got the impression randy that you believed the ot believers had no relationship with God. I'm able to communicate well at times, and at other times, I stink. Sorry 'bout that. No, I believe OT believers, when serving the Law properly, had a relationship with God. They didn't yet have the guarantee of Eternal Life, but having received the Law, God was assuring them that He was working on getting them that certificate of possession! The assurance of Eternal Life being possessed happened at the cross where Jesus told those, still under the Law, that he forgave them. He had come for that very purpose, to forgive those who had served God under the Law. What they had had with animal sacrifices was strictly a temporary substitute or exemption from judgment until final redemption became available through the Messiah. Thanks for your patience!
|
|