|
Post by randy on Nov 29, 2021 6:09:45 GMT
This is long and not very organized. Read only if you have some time.
Acts 2.14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Pentecost is full of meaning. Peter is bringing forth and applying something said by the Prophet Joel many years before regarding Israel. The Law of Moses has created a clear division between God and Man, between God and Israel. Eternal Life was not in Israel's possession, and their ceremonies showed it.
All of Israel's ceremonies kept the people penned up and unable to say they had Eternal Life yet. They all believed they would get it, but the fact they had not yet received it was wrapped up in the symbolism of their worship.
The temple walls separated God from the people. And even the priests, who could go into the temple, had to wear certain clothes, and live by certain restrictions. The veil separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies made it clear that most all of Israel were kept alienated from the full expression of Eternal Life.
However, Israel had been able to draw near to God, despite this separation. They didn't have Eternal Life, but they had hope for it. God had allowed them to come into a covenant relationship. It did not guarantee immortality, but it did assure them there was hope for it.
Israel was therefore separated from the pagan peoples around them so as to preserve the purity of their religion. This was not racist, but the practical need to remain in God's good pleasure, not practicing the sins of neighboring nations. If they were to remain close to God, they had to be faithful to His covenant regulations, and remain aloof from paganism, from uncleanness. It did not guarantee them Eternal Life, but it kept them near to God.
Joel spoke of an outpouring of God's Spirit upon Israel in an interesting way. As long as they were under the Law of Moses, there was this separation between God and the people, as well as a separation between priest and people. But Joel's prophecy spoke of a more indiscriminate outpouring of God's Spirit that seemed to defy this separation of the people from God, and from one group of people and another.
This outpouring was for men and women, masters and servants, for prophets and non-prophets. It seemed to ignore the distinction between priest and people, although under the Law that distinction was fixed in place, and Joel would not likely refer to it as such.
When Pentecost happened, in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, it indicated that Christ had ended this kind of separation imposed by the Law, between God and Himself, and between priest and people, because he tore down the barrier of sin. He simply forgave sin, conditioned on the human choice to follow him and to accept his redemption.
This also led to the breaking down of the barrier between Israel and the nations, because once Christ had atoned for sin, the redemption rituals God had required of Israel were no longer necessary. And these were the things that had separated Israel from other nations.
When Christ came to bring Eternal Life to Israel, it became clear that if Israel was able to receive Eternal Life in their "lost" condition, nothing should prevent neighboring pagan nations from receiving Eternal Life in their "lost" condition either. And so, on Pentecost, the Spirit of God gave both Israel and all mankind Eternal Life, and was distributed across all classes of men. Joel's prophecy, however, seemed less clear about this expansion of Christ's message to the Gentiles, beyond Israel.
I do believe Joel likely had been directing this sense of the Spirit's outpouring at Israel, and not so much at the inclusion of Gentile peoples. That is, I don't think Joel was suggesting necessarily that the Spirit would be poured out on all nations as much as on all classes of people in Israel, servant and master, male and female.
There was, however, in the Abrahamic Covenant a plan for an extension of God's covenant to all peoples and nations, beyond Israel. Joel's main focus nevertheless seems to be on Israel.
Even Peter's quote of Joel's prophecy seems to lack a full understanding of God's plan to pour His Spirit on all nations. Peter was clearly slow to recognize this progression from Israel to the nations in the giving of God's Spirit. Peter had to be given a special revelation later to indicate that this would happen.
Joel could not have known much about Christ's 1st Coming being the basis of this transition from Israel to the nations, and so was largely focused on the hope of Israel. Neither was it likely that Joel had much of a time frame in mind, and didn't understand that Pentecost would happen well before Christ's Coming Kingdom. He just sort of lumped the outpouring of the Spirit on Israel together with the Hope of Israel in Christ's Coming Kingdom.
And so, Joel spoke of Israel's deliverance from the pagan world, which under the Law they were to be separated from. It was, after all, the pagan nations that threatened Israel's peace. Consequently, Israel's hope was in the defeat of the threat of pagan nations against them.
And so, I think that Joel was speaking firstly of Israel when he mentions signs in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and smoke, because these are signs of warfare, constituting judgment on earth that brings deliverance to Israel from the nations. All through history, biblical prophecy portrays the nations as pagan, persecuting Israel, the people of God.
Even today, while Israel is herself in a form of paganism, the nations continue to be hostile to her as God's covenant people. I believe God still plans to bring some of them to salvation, so as to restore the nation along Christian lines. This is my own personal opinion, that God will in the near future bring large-scale judgment against Israel, and bring a remnant through the fire, to reconstitute the nation into a Christian State following the Return of Christ. Many do not believe in Pre-Mill, so I'm just offering my own opinion.
When Israel first received the Spirit on the day of Pentecost, it was not the whole nation that received Salvation, but only a small remnant. The Spirit was being poured out indiscriminately upon all classes of people, not being limited to priest or prophet. Clearly, the nation as a whole did not receive this blessing, since they were turning away from Christ.
Eternal Life was given both to the remnant of Israel that received Christ and also to people among the nations that received Christ. And so the Spirit was poured out not just on all classes of Israelis, but also on all nations.
There was no longer any need for separating Israel, as a nation, from other nations that had received Christ. But Israel, in rejecting Christ, separated herself from Christian nations.
Christian nations still must separate themselves from close associations with pagans, including Jews and Arabs. This is not, however, a legal separation, but rather, a practical separation, to maintain religious purity. In reality, Christians, whether in Christian nations or not, wish that all peoples become Christian, and so enjoy Eternal Life.
What is it about Eternal Life that ends the separation between God and His People and ends separation from one class of people and another? Whether they believe it or not, Israel is no longer required by God to observe regulations that show separation between God and people, and priest and people.
And God no longer requires of Jews elaborate rituals to purify themselves from sin, since Christ offers them instant access to cleansing from sin. Obtaining Eternal Life meant that temporal rituals were no longer necessary, such that all people could approach God with no further need of mitigation.
All that is necessary is repentance and confession of sin. All come to God equally guilty of the sin nature, and no group or individual has an advantage with God over another. The Spirit can be poured out upon all flesh both in Israel and among all nations, assuming they accept Christ's atonement for sin.
The barrier of sin to Eternal Life no longer separates priest and people. All have equal access to God. And our experience of Eternal Life simply consists of this--we have direct and uninterrupted access to God and can rely on His constant benevolence.
Nobody needs to mitigate sins any longer, once we have accepted Christ as our life and savior. This is in essence what I think Joel was predicting, a time when redemption is fulfilled, ending divisions between God and men, and thus giving all men equal access to God, based on the fact we all have the same redeemer.
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Nov 29, 2021 18:03:13 GMT
Randy, you stated that Israel did not have the Hope of Eternal Life. If that was the case, what is meant by the following Scriptures?
Daniel 12:1-3 1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Job 19:25-27 25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. 26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, 27 whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!
Isaiah 26:19 19 Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.
Psalms 23:6 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Nov 30, 2021 18:30:21 GMT
Randy, you stated that Israel did not have the Hope of Eternal Life. If that was the case, what is meant by the following Scriptures? Daniel 12:1-3 1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Job 19:25-27 25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. 26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, 27 whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me! Isaiah 26:19 19 Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. Psalms 23:6 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever. No, I said: "They didn't have Eternal Life, but they had hope for it." I believe that Israel, before Christ, did not yet have the assurance that they had Eternal Life. Everything they practiced under the Law informed them of that. And that was one of the main points in my post. But in view of the covenant of Law God gave them, I agree that they certainly had *hope* that it would happen. Sorry my post was long and a bit of a drudgery. It was easy to misread. I'm still a "work in progress."
|
|
|
Post by randy on Nov 30, 2021 18:40:56 GMT
I probably should've just stopped with the following:
Acts 2.14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Pentecost is full of meaning. Peter is bringing forth and applying something said by the Prophet Joel many years before regarding Israel. The Law of Moses has created a clear division between God and Man, between God and Israel. Eternal Life was not in Israel's possession, and their ceremonies showed it.
All of Israel's ceremonies kept the people penned up and unable to say they had Eternal Life yet. They all believed they would get it, but the fact they had not yet received it was wrapped up in the symbolism of their worship.
The temple walls separated God from the people. And even the priests, who could go into the temple, had to wear certain clothes, and live by certain restrictions. The veil separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies made it clear that most all of Israel were kept alienated from the full expression of Eternal Life.
However, Israel had been able to draw near to God, despite this separation. They didn't have Eternal Life, but they had hope for it. God had allowed them to come into a covenant relationship. It did not guarantee immortality, but it did assure them there was hope for it.
My point here is that Joel spoke of a time when the Spirit of God would bring hope to Israel, with respect to their hope of Eternal Life, and it would happen in an unusual way. It would be an indiscriminate outpouring, as opposed to the OT system, which divided priest from people, prophet from non-prophet, and Jew from Gentile.
It was not yet so clear that it would unite Jew and Gentile when Peter quoted Joel, nor am I sure that even Joel fully understood the ramifications of his prophecy. But this was some kind of demonstration of God's promise of giving Eternal Life to Israel, by indiscriminately pouring out His Spirit upon all classes in Israel, ultimately resulting in both Jew and Gentile receiving the Spirit of God.
The implication, looking backwards, is that God undid the OT religious system to enable direct access to Himself by all, conditioned upon their acceptance of a new and final system of redemption, the redemption of Christ. Israel no longer needs temple or priest, nor redemption sacrifices. We can receive the redemption that Christ has already provided in his death simply by accepting his life as our way forward. This puts us all on the same ground, we all being priests, of a kind.
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Nov 30, 2021 22:43:05 GMT
Randy, you stated that Israel did not have the Hope of Eternal Life. If that was the case, what is meant by the following Scriptures? Daniel 12:1-3 1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Job 19:25-27 25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. 26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, 27 whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me! Isaiah 26:19 19 Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. Psalms 23:6 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever. No, I said: "They didn't have Eternal Life, but they had hope for it." I believe that Israel, before Christ, did not yet have the assurance that they had Eternal Life. Everything they practiced under the Law informed them of that. And that was one of the main points in my post. But in view of the covenant of Law God gave them, I agree that they certainly had *hope* that it would happen. Sorry my post was long and a bit of a drudgery. It was easy to misread. I'm still a "work in progress." The Scriptures that I used are speaking of Eternal Life as a reality, not just a hope. Both the old covenant and the new covenant promises Eternal Life for all who have faith in God’s promises. You are right when you state that it is not attained through religiously following the law. However all The Righteous, both Jew and Gentle will attain Eternal Life because of their faith in God which leads to righteous living, not just following rules religiously.
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Nov 30, 2021 23:47:31 GMT
I probably should've just stopped with the following: Acts 2.14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Pentecost is full of meaning. Peter is bringing forth and applying something said by the Prophet Joel many years before regarding Israel. The Law of Moses has created a clear division between God and Man, between God and Israel. Eternal Life was not in Israel's possession, and their ceremonies showed it.
All of Israel's ceremonies kept the people penned up and unable to say they had Eternal Life yet. They all believed they would get it, but the fact they had not yet received it was wrapped up in the symbolism of their worship.
The temple walls separated God from the people. And even the priests, who could go into the temple, had to wear certain clothes, and live by certain restrictions. The veil separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies made it clear that most all of Israel were kept alienated from the full expression of Eternal Life.
However, Israel had been able to draw near to God, despite this separation. They didn't have Eternal Life, but they had hope for it. God had allowed them to come into a covenant relationship. It did not guarantee immortality, but it did assure them there was hope for it.My point here is that Joel spoke of a time when the Spirit of God would bring hope to Israel, with respect to their hope of Eternal Life, and it would happen in an unusual way. It would be an indiscriminate outpouring, as opposed to the OT system, which divided priest from people, prophet from non-prophet, and Jew from Gentile. It was not yet so clear that it would unite Jew and Gentile when Peter quoted Joel, nor am I sure that even Joel fully understood the ramifications of his prophecy. But this was some kind of demonstration of God's promise of giving Eternal Life to Israel, by indiscriminately pouring out His Spirit upon all classes in Israel, ultimately resulting in both Jew and Gentile receiving the Spirit of God. The implication, looking backwards, is that God undid the OT religious system to enable direct access to Himself by all, conditioned upon their acceptance of a new and final system of redemption, the redemption of Christ. Israel no longer needs temple or priest, nor redemption sacrifices. We can receive the redemption that Christ has already provided in his death simply by accepting his life as our way forward. This puts us all on the same ground, we all being priests, of a kind. Randy allow me to make a clarification on this paragraph “The implication, looking backwards, is that God undid the OT religious system to enable direct access to Himself by all, conditioned upon their acceptance of a new and final system of redemption, the redemption of Christ. Israel no longer needs temple or priest, nor redemption sacrifices. We can receive the redemption that Christ has already provided in his death simply by accepting his life as our way forward. This puts us all on the same ground, we all being priests, of a kind.” God did not undo the old religious system to allow access to Himself. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant through His sacrificial death bringing in the new covenant through which we Gentiles are able to receive redemption and access to God.
|
|
|
Post by Naama on Dec 1, 2021 0:52:38 GMT
I am not sure why you keep saying the church before the cross followed rules religiously?
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 3, 2021 7:00:49 GMT
No, I said: "They didn't have Eternal Life, but they had hope for it." I believe that Israel, before Christ, did not yet have the assurance that they had Eternal Life. Everything they practiced under the Law informed them of that. And that was one of the main points in my post. But in view of the covenant of Law God gave them, I agree that they certainly had *hope* that it would happen. Sorry my post was long and a bit of a drudgery. It was easy to misread. I'm still a "work in progress." The Scriptures that I used are speaking of Eternal Life as a reality, not just a hope. Both the old covenant and the new covenant promises Eternal Life for all who have faith in God’s promises. You are right when you state that it is not attained through religiously following the law. However all The Righteous, both Jew and Gentle will attain Eternal Life because of their faith in God which leads to righteous living, not just following rules religiously. I don't under your concern? The Scriptures refer to Eternal Life in the NT as a hope, and more, as a certain hope. But I'm speaking of a time before the realization of that hope through the death of Christ. Israel only had hope, but not yet the reality. They had a spiritual life in their temporal covenant with God through the Law. But they did not have legal guarantees that they had Eternal Life until they entered into the covenant of Christ. And that happened only at his death on the cross. The legal work did not get done until Christ came, died, and forgave all who would come to him and choose to live by his life. Where is the problem in this? Titus 1.1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 3, 2021 7:06:35 GMT
I am not sure why you keep saying the church before the cross followed rules religiously? Was this a question directed to me? You didn't mention any name, or quote any statement. My thought on this, off the top of my head, is that there was no church before the cross. I know that Paul mentions something suggestive of this, but as we understand the Church today in the NT we only think of the Church as the NT assembly of Christians. The OT did not distinguish between saved and unsaved because nobody was legally saved in the OT until Christ actually did his work on the cross.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 3, 2021 17:44:58 GMT
I probably should've just stopped with the following: Acts 2.14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Pentecost is full of meaning. Peter is bringing forth and applying something said by the Prophet Joel many years before regarding Israel. The Law of Moses has created a clear division between God and Man, between God and Israel. Eternal Life was not in Israel's possession, and their ceremonies showed it.
All of Israel's ceremonies kept the people penned up and unable to say they had Eternal Life yet. They all believed they would get it, but the fact they had not yet received it was wrapped up in the symbolism of their worship.
The temple walls separated God from the people. And even the priests, who could go into the temple, had to wear certain clothes, and live by certain restrictions. The veil separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies made it clear that most all of Israel were kept alienated from the full expression of Eternal Life.
However, Israel had been able to draw near to God, despite this separation. They didn't have Eternal Life, but they had hope for it. God had allowed them to come into a covenant relationship. It did not guarantee immortality, but it did assure them there was hope for it.My point here is that Joel spoke of a time when the Spirit of God would bring hope to Israel, with respect to their hope of Eternal Life, and it would happen in an unusual way. It would be an indiscriminate outpouring, as opposed to the OT system, which divided priest from people, prophet from non-prophet, and Jew from Gentile. It was not yet so clear that it would unite Jew and Gentile when Peter quoted Joel, nor am I sure that even Joel fully understood the ramifications of his prophecy. But this was some kind of demonstration of God's promise of giving Eternal Life to Israel, by indiscriminately pouring out His Spirit upon all classes in Israel, ultimately resulting in both Jew and Gentile receiving the Spirit of God. The implication, looking backwards, is that God undid the OT religious system to enable direct access to Himself by all, conditioned upon their acceptance of a new and final system of redemption, the redemption of Christ. Israel no longer needs temple or priest, nor redemption sacrifices. We can receive the redemption that Christ has already provided in his death simply by accepting his life as our way forward. This puts us all on the same ground, we all being priests, of a kind. Randy allow me to make a clarification on this paragraph “The implication, looking backwards, is that God undid the OT religious system to enable direct access to Himself by all, conditioned upon their acceptance of a new and final system of redemption, the redemption of Christ. Israel no longer needs temple or priest, nor redemption sacrifices. We can receive the redemption that Christ has already provided in his death simply by accepting his life as our way forward. This puts us all on the same ground, we all being priests, of a kind.” God did not undo the old religious system to allow access to Himself. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant through His sacrificial death bringing in the new covenant through which we Gentiles are able to receive redemption and access to God. You certainly may make clarifications, but you still have yet to acknowledge that I *did not say* Israel had no hope for Eternal Life. I expressly, explicitly said the opposite, that Israel did indeed have hope for Eternal Life! On the matter you're now bringing up, that God did not undo the old religious system, I disagree. I believe Christ nailed the requirements of the Law to the cross, to himself. All of the infractions of Israel, and the sins of Man, were inflicted upon him so that he in his death could forgive them all. He had the right, as Son of God, to forgive every sin, particularly after experiencing those sins in full. So the obligations of Israel and of the whole world under God's Law were dealt with on the cross such that no further price to forgive sin was needed. The Law became a meaningless instrument that had temporarily provided a means for dealing with sin until Christ completed the task. How was the Law undone as a religious system? It was no longer required of Israel once Christ had died. Not only had Israel broken the covenant that made keeping the Law effective, but the sacrifices offered for sin became redundant, in view of the fact Christ's sacrifice covered sins both temporally and eternally.
|
|
|
Post by Naama on Dec 3, 2021 20:21:56 GMT
You are misrepresenting what foxjj said randy.
Read it again and you will see foxjj does not believe we are under law of moses
|
|
|
Post by Naama on Dec 3, 2021 20:29:07 GMT
If the church before the cross were not indwelt and saved believers who followed a meaningless mystery religion then why even open up the old testament?
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 3, 2021 21:53:56 GMT
You are misrepresenting what foxjj said randy. Read it again and you will see foxjj does not believe we are under law of moses Thank you, Naama. I do recognize that foxjj does not deny we are under Grace now, and not under Law as ancient Israel was. He has confused me by declaring I said things I did not say, and I'm seeking to understand what his concerns are? Perhaps there is a deeper disagreement I don't understand yet, or maybe we're just miscommunicating? I'm confident it will be worked out. I agree with the vast number of things he posts, and respect him for all the good he is doing. I do not hesitate, however, to speak my mind, believing that the quickest path to resolving problems is by bluntly stating your concerns. With two good spirits, there's bound to be some kind of resolution to any problem!
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 3, 2021 21:59:29 GMT
If the church before the cross were not indwelt and saved believers who followed a meaningless mystery religion then why even open up the old testament? That's actually a very good question, and one that I'm prepared to answer. I was just reading 1 Peter 1. 1 Peter 1.18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.As you can see, Peter himself declared that the tradition of Law passed down from the OT saints was an "empty way of life." That is, it did not satisfy in the sense of providing what Israel had hoped for, namely Eternal Life. It was satisfying at the time in the sense that it temporarily covered for Israel's sins, and kept them in covenant relationship with God. And so, OT Israel did have the Spirit indwell them in a temporal sense. It's just that the Spirit could not legally indwell them *for eternity* until Christ had provided the legal fix that was needed. Seeing the transition from temporal fix to NT solution is important in understanding the centrality of Christ in our spiritual life. We don't follow imperfect priests in the OT, but only the sinless Christ, who is God's representative for us. Only he provides us with the proper example, from which we derive the spirituality needed to live like him.
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Dec 3, 2021 23:08:39 GMT
Randy allow me to make a clarification on this paragraph “The implication, looking backwards, is that God undid the OT religious system to enable direct access to Himself by all, conditioned upon their acceptance of a new and final system of redemption, the redemption of Christ. Israel no longer needs temple or priest, nor redemption sacrifices. We can receive the redemption that Christ has already provided in his death simply by accepting his life as our way forward. This puts us all on the same ground, we all being priests, of a kind.” God did not undo the old religious system to allow access to Himself. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant through His sacrificial death bringing in the new covenant through which we Gentiles are able to receive redemption and access to God. You certainly may make clarifications, but you still have yet to acknowledge that I *did not say* Israel had no hope for Eternal Life. I expressly, explicitly said the opposite, that Israel did indeed have hope for Eternal Life! On the matter you're now bringing up, that God did not undo the old religious system, I disagree. I believe Christ nailed the requirements of the Law to the cross, to himself. All of the infractions of Israel, and the sins of Man, were inflicted upon him so that he in his death could forgive them all. He had the right, as Son of God, to forgive every sin, particularly after experiencing those sins in full. So the obligations of Israel and of the whole world under God's Law were dealt with on the cross such that no further price to forgive sin was needed. The Law became a meaningless instrument that had temporarily provided a means for dealing with sin until Christ completed the task. How was the Law undone as a religious system? It was no longer required of Israel once Christ had died. Not only had Israel broken the covenant that made keeping the Law effective, but the sacrifices offered for sin became redundant, in view of the fact Christ's sacrifice covered sins both temporally and eternally. Randy, one of the paragraphs where you state Israel had no hope of eternal life is: “If they were to remain close to God, they had to be faithful to His covenant regulations, and remain aloof from paganism, from uncleanness. It did not guarantee them Eternal Life, but it kept them near to God.” My point in quoting the Old Testament passages was to show that they did believe they would enter into eternal life after the day of judgment. As further examples I offer the following: “But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead; he will surely take me to himself.” (Psalms 49:15 ) “23 Yet I am always with you; you hold me by my right hand. 24 You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will take me into glory. 25 Whom have I in heaven but you? And earth has nothing I desire besides you.” (Psalms 73:23-25) If there was no hope of life with Yahweh after death, what was the point of their very strict religion with all of the required sacrifices? That Christ fulfilled the Law making it redundant we are grateful. In Him we have our hope of eternal life.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 4, 2021 0:31:49 GMT
You certainly may make clarifications, but you still have yet to acknowledge that I *did not say* Israel had no hope for Eternal Life. I expressly, explicitly said the opposite, that Israel did indeed have hope for Eternal Life! On the matter you're now bringing up, that God did not undo the old religious system, I disagree. I believe Christ nailed the requirements of the Law to the cross, to himself. All of the infractions of Israel, and the sins of Man, were inflicted upon him so that he in his death could forgive them all. He had the right, as Son of God, to forgive every sin, particularly after experiencing those sins in full. So the obligations of Israel and of the whole world under God's Law were dealt with on the cross such that no further price to forgive sin was needed. The Law became a meaningless instrument that had temporarily provided a means for dealing with sin until Christ completed the task. How was the Law undone as a religious system? It was no longer required of Israel once Christ had died. Not only had Israel broken the covenant that made keeping the Law effective, but the sacrifices offered for sin became redundant, in view of the fact Christ's sacrifice covered sins both temporally and eternally. Randy, one of the paragraphs where you state Israel had no hope of eternal life is: “If they were to remain close to God, they had to be faithful to His covenant regulations, and remain aloof from paganism, from uncleanness. It did not guarantee them Eternal Life, but it kept them near to God.” My point in quoting the Old Testament passages was to show that they did believe they would enter into eternal life after the day of judgment. As further examples I offer the following: “But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead; he will surely take me to himself.” (Psalms 49:15 ) “23 Yet I am always with you; you hold me by my right hand. 24 You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will take me into glory. 25 Whom have I in heaven but you? And earth has nothing I desire besides you.” (Psalms 73:23-25) If there was no hope of life with Yahweh after death, what was the point of their very strict religion with all of the required sacrifices? That Christ fulfilled the Law making it redundant we are grateful. In Him we have our hope of eternal life. Thank you for explaining, brother, because I just couldn't see the problem. I do now. As I said before, I had begun with declaring that Israel had the hope for Eternal Life from the beginning. I quote: "However, Israel had been able to draw near to God, despite this separation. They didn't have Eternal Life, but they had hope for it. God had allowed them to come into a covenant relationship. It did not guarantee immortality, but it did assure them there was hope for it.My point here is that Joel spoke of a time when the Spirit of God would bring hope to Israel, with respect to their hope of Eternal Life..."So I'll clarify here. 1) I said "Israel had hope for [Eternal Life]" while they were under the Law. 2) Israel did not yet have the "Spirit of God [bringing] the hope of Eternal Life" in the form of a legal guarantee until the right time, ie at the death of Christ. I'm not saying that everybody under the old covenant would be damned! And I'm not saying they didn't hope for resurrection and Eternal Life. Rather, I'm saying that until Christ legally provided a way for them to have the assurance of Eternal Life, they only had hope, and not a legal right to access it. My point is that the original covenant of Law was specifically designed to give them this hope in an undeveloped way until it actually materialized as a legal right. Until that time, they only had unfulfilled hope, and not yet the guarantee. Are we in agreement on this?
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Dec 4, 2021 8:57:37 GMT
My understanding is that Israel had hope of eternal life as long as they obeyed the law. However we know from scripture that this was a very demanding challenge. That been said, there were many righteous people who loved the Lord and would joyfully live out their life without transgressions as the scriptures that I quoted inferred.
The problem with the sacrifices for sin under the law was that the blood covered their sin. Consequently, the Lord promised An Anointed One who would redeem Israel. In these promises we see the fulfillment in Jesus. One of the great examples been Isaiah 53:4-6:
“4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 4, 2021 17:35:26 GMT
My understanding is that Israel had hope of eternal life as long as they obeyed the law. However we know from scripture that this was a very demanding challenge. That been said, there were many righteous people who loved the Lord and would joyfully live out their life without transgressions as the scriptures that I quoted inferred. The problem with the sacrifices for sin under the law was that the blood covered their sin. Consequently, the Lord promised An Anointed One who would redeem Israel. In these promises we see the fulfillment in Jesus. One of the great examples been Isaiah 53:4-6: “4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Yes, we can agree on that, except that it doesn't delineate where you had a problem with what I said? I do agree that under the Law Israel was able to keep the Law, not earning Eternal Life, but earning the right to be blessed for their obedience. And under the Law they also had the hope of Eternal Life, even though Christ had not yet made atonement for them to achieve this. So I don't really understand the problem? But I don't suppose I have to. I was just trying to explain my position, which I don't always do a good job of doing. I was raised up, as I shared before, in a dead religious environment with sparks of life. I knew Christ in a very diminished way until someone with more life in them contributed to me moving forward in the Lord and experiencing much more. So my religious experience was perfunctory and a matter of stating doctrines, creeds, and traditions without fully thinking through them. It felt good to be orthodox in my doctrine, but eventually I felt I was just parroting others without fully comprehending these beliefs for myself. So I've spent the last 50 years studying "to show myself approved of God, a workman that needs not be ashamed." I've wanted to help others think through orthodox doctrines so as to experience them, as I have. It has really helped me, although there's a lot of spiritual warfare in it. I think the Enemy would prefer me to go back to parroting denominational doctrines, and not think through things. But I do recognize that if we're going to accomplish anything for the Lord, it will come at a price, with misunderstanding, opposition, and personal failures. The litmus test to know we are "on course" is God's love. If we seek to see others get saved, and if we try to build up brothers and sisters in the Lord, we'll be tracking properly, I feel. I'll take the blame if I'm not communicating well.
|
|
|
Post by foxjj on Dec 4, 2021 17:59:59 GMT
Randy, please do not go back to parroting doctrines. The Lord has given each believer the Spirit in order to grow in our knowledge of The Gospel. Consequently as you stated, we each help one another by sharing our understanding which is one of the reasons for this site. So keep posting and sharing.
|
|
|
Post by randy on Dec 4, 2021 18:32:25 GMT
Randy, please do not go back to parroting doctrines. The Lord has given each believer the Spirit in order to grow in our knowledge of The Gospel. Consequently as you stated, we each help one another by sharing our understanding which is one of the reasons for this site. So keep posting and sharing. I appreciate that. I could never go back to where I was in my adolescence! Nor could I go back to Lutheranism, although I do have an old friend who is a pretty sound Lutheran pastor--now retired. My goal is to draw near to God so as to hear Him better. I'm pretty sure we share that goal?
|
|