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Post by princess on Apr 15, 2019 13:05:12 GMT
What specifically attracted the sons of God to the daughters if men?
The answer is autonomy.
Lamech reveals what caused the faithful to become attracted to the unfaithful towards the end of chapter 5.
“He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.”
The faithful began to loose faith and complain of the pain and burden of working a cursed soil. This burden is directly associated with the faithful having many "other sons and daughters" which is not attributed to the unfaithful.
The daughters of men offered the sons of God the autonomy they desired.
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Post by mfox on Apr 16, 2019 2:03:16 GMT
What specifically attracted the sons of God to the daughters if men? The answer is autonomy. Lamech reveals what caused the faithful to become attracted to the unfaithful towards the end of chapter 5. “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.” The faithful began to loose faith and complain of the pain and burden of working a cursed soil. This burden is directly associated with the faithful having many "other sons and daughters" which is not attributed to the unfaithful. The daughters of men offered the sons of God the autonomy they desired. I see what you are saying and it makes sense and I can see how it was a big reason to the intermarrying The faithful marring the unfaithful because they were beautiful was also directly associated to the cause but it seams that their parents didn’t speak up against it I can see how this leads into the end times as humans after-time always think that they know better. This then leads to changing Gods rules as we see happening in the church today. God is patient but Will only put up with mankind for so long Thanks princess for delving deeper into this subject do you have any more input?
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Post by princess on Apr 16, 2019 5:59:32 GMT
I agree the men married the women just because of their beauty and considered this good.
The words saw-attractive-took in Genesis 6:2 reenacts the pattern of Eve's desire to be autonomous from God's predetermined purpose of her creation in Genesis 3:6.
The seed of the serpent and the seed of Seth are distinguished by what they define as their highest good. Of course the faithful are attributed with having many other children which is not attributed to the seed of the serpent. However, the seed of the serpent is attributed with many great advances in farming, the arts and science which is not attributed to the seed of Seth. At first, this seems oddly like a compliment instead of serpent-like behavior but makes sense if autonomy forms their highest good
Autonomy, above all desires self determination. To be autonomous means to be self determining. This means whatever is predetermined is seen as a negative imposition and restriction on the individual. Whatever is predetermined will be challenged in the name of liberty. The predetermined aspects of life such as sex, gender distinctions, masculinity, femininity, child-bearing and child-raising are unchosen and therefore made not important and non spiritual. If what is predetermined by God is robbed of meaning and purpose then meaning and purpose is limited to those things that can be self-determined and self authored.
Therefore, the seed of the serpent is identified by their self authored achievements as opposed to what is predetermined by God.
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Post by foxjj on Apr 16, 2019 6:32:06 GMT
Very well put princess.
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Post by mfox on Apr 17, 2019 2:17:24 GMT
I agree the men married the women just because of their beauty and considered this good. The words saw-attractive-took in Genesis 6:2 reenacts the pattern of Eve's desire to be autonomous from God's predetermined purpose of her creation in Genesis 3:6. The seed of the serpent and the seed of Seth are distinguished by what they define as their highest good. Of course the faithful are attributed with having many other children which is not attributed to the seed of the serpent. However, the seed of the serpent is attributed with many great advances in farming, the arts and science which is not attributed to the seed of Seth. At first, this seems oddly like a compliment instead of serpent-like behavior but makes sense if autonomy forms their highest good Autonomy, above all desires self determination. To be autonomous means to be self determining. This means whatever is predetermined is seen as a negative imposition and restriction on the individual. Whatever is predetermined will be challenged in the name of liberty. The predetermined aspects of life such as sex, gender distinctions, masculinity, femininity, child-bearing and child-raising are unchosen and therefore made not important and non spiritual. If what is predetermined by God is robbed of meaning and purpose then meaning and purpose is limited to those things that can be self-determined and self authored. Therefore, the seed of the serpent is identified by their self authored achievements as opposed to what is predetermined by God. Yes I see what you are saying great observation I guess it wasn’t Gods will be done but thy will be done. This also rings back to the Israelites wanting a king and Samuel warning against it I can also see this looking attractive to the faithful and it being a big reason for conforming I have my own ideas but with all that being said how do you see it tying into end times do you see it happening in the church today? Thanks Again the lesson princess
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Post by ted on Apr 17, 2019 18:21:22 GMT
"Therefore, the seed of the serpent is identified by their self authored achievements as opposed to what is predetermined by God. "
I agree with this point yet don't agree upon the wording; there is a subtle error which mankind struggles against constantly. God doesn't predetermine our lives; this is a gift to each us. We all have free will. But we are very much inclined to not acknowledge God and subsequently deny His gifts to each of us (saying any part of our lives is predetermined denies God's gift of free will). I have the choice to follow God's will by following Christ and hearing His Word. Any actions that isn't in that direction is a "self authored achievement" which moves me away from God. Satan very much wants as many children of God to follow him in his demise (because misery loves company) and so he deceives us unceasingly to coerce us in our free will to walk away from God. But it takes a great spirit to deny that. Thus I thank God that he has given me the Holy Spirit to continue to keep following Him. For with out it, I would surely perish.
So yes the sentiment in the quote is right, but it does not properly acknowledge God in his love and kindness to gift us the tools to deny Satan and come into continual and ultimately constant communion with God. This is our choice to take these Gifts from God and we must humble ourselves that is through God's gift that we may come to Him. He sacrificed His only begotten Son in atonement for all of our sins so that we may make each make our choice. I give thanks to God in all His glory. May we all receive God's blessing and hear His calling.
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Post by princess on Apr 18, 2019 5:25:34 GMT
To claim that whatever is predetermined in life would deny God's gift of free will is like saying the law of gravity denies the gift of free will. Yet, anyone who claims they can transcend the law of gravity will soon find themselves crashing to the ground.
Gender is a predetermined part of life. Is the biological fact of two genders denying God's gift of free will to the transgender folk? We can identify the more outrageous outcomes of autonomy like transgenderism and homosexuality while the basic assumptions that led to their acceptance goes completely unnoticed because the transformational change has been so subtle but so utterly complete.
For example: What you have written sounds very spiritual on the surface while practically says nothing at all. Your words are absolutely drenched with the cryptic and esoteric language of autonomy. Autonomy always divides the mind from the body. It must. From this perspective spirituality is removed from the personal body and then everything is self determined from the subjective inclinations of the mind or "thinking soul". Spirituality can only be expressed as being a private mysterious "spidey" sense that consists of imagination, feelings and intuition that nobody can humanly explain because it utterly lacks any earthly or embodied context.
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Post by ted on Apr 18, 2019 17:58:56 GMT
To claim that whatever is predetermined in life would deny God's gift of free will is like saying the law of gravity denies the gift of free will. Yet, anyone who claims they can transcend the law of gravity will soon find themselves crashing to the ground. Gender is a predetermined part of life. Is the biological fact of two genders denying God's gift of free will to the transgender folk? We can identify the more outrageous outcomes of autonomy like transgenderism and homosexuality while the basic assumptions that led to their acceptance goes completely unnoticed because the transformational change has been so subtle but so utterly complete. For example: What you have written sounds very spiritual on the surface while practically says nothing at all. Your words are absolutely drenched with the cryptic and esoteric language of autonomy. Autonomy always divides the mind from the body. It must. From this perspective spirituality is removed from the personal body and then everything is self determined from the subjective inclinations of the mind or "thinking soul". Spirituality can only be expressed as being a private mysterious "spidey" sense that consists of imagination, feelings and intuition that nobody can humanly explain because it utterly lacks any earthly or embodied context. I must humbly admit I went off on a tangent thought. Yes, absolutely God predetermines many elements in our lives such as our gender and other physical attributes. I digressed around the point about how we respond to our circumstances is anything but predetermined; This was me going askew to your main thesis, Princess. Please forgive me. I would like to discuss though the idea of autonomy dividing mind and body. Many things I do in my Christian practice is for the purpose of unifying mind, body and spirit. It is my fallen nature that I've fallen in to habits where the needs/desires of the body cause me to succumb to sin. There are many such examples. Over indulgent eating is a common example. To subdue the desire for certain foods or over indulgence, I practice regular fasting. Granted I'm not as strict as I would like to be yet that is me struggling against my own bodily wants. Yet when I deny my body of food (or certain foods) my mind becomes aware of my hunger (bodily desire) and thus I am able to realize consciously how much lack of conformity there really is between my body and my mind. Extended practice of fasting has taught me humility. I can't fast on my own, my will isn't strong enough to subdue bodily desire. Thus I rely on prayer and ask that God's will be done and that by His grace I obtain the will to hold to my fast. For me, fasting is about unifying my mind, body, and letting His spirit enjoin with my own. I am a prisoner to my own body; I am captive such that I can not worship God almighty constantly and remain in communion with Him. But through Christ I am shown the way to receive that gift; not now, but in the second life. I must be like one of the 10 virgins with their oil laps waiting on the bridegroom. I am as frequently as I am able preparing myself for His coming. Anyway that is a long winded way of saying, I believe we are in harmony. A divided mind and body is not a good thing; I would further posit that it is a consequence of our fallen nature. When I practice living as Christ, I feel my unity in my mind and spirit such that body is without consequence because it is cared for, yet it is not the driving influence over the mind or spirit. I can only relate my own personal experience. I have no expectation that anyone else will follow a similar path nor that you would necessarily relate to mine. But we don't need to, God meets us where ever we are at in mind, body, and spirit. We may all become prodigal sons, but we must make that choice in humbling ourselves and repenting for our missteps in our God gifted autonomy.
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Post by princess on Apr 19, 2019 14:04:57 GMT
I am humbled by your faith and humility. I am very pleased to meet you! I wanted to launch off what you said previously in order to explain the parallels of the moral condition that preceded the flood and the modern era.
There are still strong elements of what you wrote that can help establish this connection...Please forgive me
Me and my girlfriends also fast twice a week. We are a motley crew of protestant, catholic and eastern orthodox gals. In this time we only eat vegetables and refrain from fine dining and other guilty pleasures such as smoking, coffee, alcohol and chocolate for a few examples! What my friends enjoy may not be my cup of tea and what i enjoy might not be their cup of tea. I don't like drinking but we always have alcohol at our house to serve guests. Life should be full of pleasure and fasting helps us say no and control excess and glutteny.
You wrote
"I am a prisoner to my own body; I am captive such that I can not worship God almighty constantly and remain in communion with Him"
You are not a prisoner in your body because you are a body. Its who you are. We don't need to escape our bodies in order to achieve enlightenment, nirvana, the elusian fields or heaven. A soul without a body is a ghost and a body without a soul is a zombie. You are incomplete without both. A relationship with God is embodied not disembodied.
This takes us back to the fall
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Post by ted on Apr 19, 2019 18:38:56 GMT
Thank you for your kind response Princess and I am happy to see new voices added to our dialog. My brain is often scattered and I never quite get my thoughts out completely and correctly. You caught an error I made. My body doesn't imprison me, rather it is easy to be imprisoned by ones bodily desires. I feel joy and gratitude through things that most would consider insufferable because I now rely Upon God for I know that without Him I can do nothing. Through awareness my bodily desires now serve to act as a reminder for me which brings me towards God rather than away. It seems in every occurrence in our life is an opportunity to turn to God or turn away. I have finally come to seek Him with all my being which has changed me by Gods Love and Grace. For that I am ever so thankful to God and I pray that each of us all come to find the same in their lives.
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Post by randy on Sept 15, 2019 3:35:17 GMT
Agree with all you're saying here, Marty. Love is best expressed as fidelity to the word of God, as it is spoken to every human heart. When we don't conform to that word, we sin, and separate ourselves from God. Some in Seth's line pursued God. But over time the "children of God" compromised and let their own independent judgment take charge, causing them to compromise God's word, just as Adam and Eve did. This is indeed a deadly sin, hurting others and separating ourselves from the Lord. We should look only to Christ and to his desires. Then we won't go by our eyes alone.
I realize that the idea that the "sons of God" are angels is a longstanding belief, established within the history of the church. But I cannot bring myself to believe angels and men cohabited in any way. The real danger, as others say here, is when men stop seeing the importance of our partnership with God. In partnering with God we recognize our need to have the word of God always embedded in our mind and heart, so that in everything we do it conforms to our understanding of God. And if God should ask something of us, verbally or by circumstance, we will respond appropriately.
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Post by mfox on Sept 15, 2019 16:29:47 GMT
Agree with all you're saying here, Marty. Love is best expressed as fidelity to the word of God, as it is spoken to every human heart. When we don't conform to that word, we sin, and separate ourselves from God. Some in Seth's line pursued God. But over time the "children of God" compromised and let their own independent judgment take charge, causing them to compromise God's word, just as Adam and Eve did. This is indeed a deadly sin, hurting others and separating ourselves from the Lord. We should look only to Christ and to his desires. Then we won't go by our eyes alone. I realize that the idea that the "sons of God" are angels is a longstanding belief, established within the history of the church. But I cannot bring myself to believe angels and men cohabited in any way. The real danger, as others say here, is when men stop seeing the importance of our partnership with God. In partnering with God we recognize our need to have the word of God always embedded in our mind and heart, so that in everything we do it conforms to our understanding of God. And if God should ask something of us, verbally or by circumstance, we will respond appropriately. Thanks Randy I can see that conforming to the ways of the world and choosing our path of life over Gods plan for us will be the down fall of our world
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Post by randy on Sept 15, 2019 20:29:40 GMT
Yes, I do think the mix between those of faith and those of the world is the downfall of the world in our time. Christiandom is mixing with foreign religions. Christianity in the West is polluted with Humanism and with Liberal Religion.
I do believe that in these endtimes the choice will become ever clearer. Men will be given a clear choice, in Christiandom, and hopefully elsewhere, between following Christ or following the wicked ways of Independent Man.
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